[w1xonaut]

He may be a traitor to that vile and heinous entity known as the United States, but he's a godamned hero to the rest of the world for exposing the crimes against humanity that the American people are allowing to occur in their name. It is the American people who cannot be trusted, for they have allowed their government, for decades, to get away with countless series of crimes against humanity, and done nothing to stop its military industrial masters from having with the world as they will.

So if you have a strictly America-first orientation towards the world, feel free to continue the justification. But if you can see the world outside the pretty box, Snowden is one of the most important figures in the world today. He represents what America used to be: brave, honorable, and doing what's right in face of the certain personal danger one faces when going up against totalitarian systems of control which have the purpose of enslaving us all.

[baddox]

> He may be a traitor to that vile and heinous entity known as the United States, but he's a godamned hero to the rest of the world for exposing the crimes against humanity that the American people are allowing to occur in their name.

This is preposterous. It would make sense to blame the American people for the actions of the American government if there was a strong correlation between public opinion and government policy. I would argue that there is no such strong correlation, and even if there were, the blame would only apply to the specific individuals who approve of the government policies.

You can't just assume the middle school civics class description of government as reflecting the will of the people, then conclude therefore that the people are to blame for the actions of the government.

To be explicit: I am an American citizen (an accident of birth), I approve of and consent to very little of what the US government does, and I accept no responsibility for what the US government does.

[mercurial]

Well, take a look around you if you're in Europe, Australia or New Zealand and notice that while they're mouthing embarrassed platitudes, the heads of most, if not all, EU countries are busy cooperating with the NSA. If you're not, I'd be curious to know in which wonderful country you live, where something like "the rule of law" applies to intelligence services.

That said, wrt to Snowden being a traitor... if that is your reaction to "the previous and current administrations have created a completely out-of-control behemoth which invades both our and our allies' privacy without any oversight, and therefore threatens the notion of free and fair election anywhere in the western world", maybe you should rethink your priorities.

[DanBC]

GCHQ operate to English law. They have specific exemptions and exclusions under and protections under all the relevant English law.

Have a look at RIPA, one important bit of law that regulates GCHQ: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/contents

Here's an example of GCHQ being mentioned as exempt from a law. This is the sexual offences act; GCHQ are allowed to "make"[1] a photograph of child sexual abuse if it's needed for a function of GCHQ. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/46

Peoe said when RIP was a bill that it was too strong and did not offer enough protection.

The poor quality of oversight of GCHQ is surprising.

[1] make here is a technical term and includes "make a copy of a digital file".

[mercurial]

> GCHQ operate to English law. They have specific exemptions and exclusions under and protections under all the relevant English law.

Well, I don't know about that. The fact that they're happily sending everything to the NSA can hardly be compatible with EU data protection law, and considering that their best friends, the US intelligence and law enforcement services, were caught red-handed doing illegal wiretaps right before the executive branch retroactively made it legal, well, it doesn't inspire much confidence. Now, if you start looking at, say, the activities of the British secret services during the Thatcher era, you come to realize that there may be a slight gap between the things they admit to do, and the stuff they actually do.