[cdnsteve]

Maybe it's just me but I'm not drinking the kool aid about Apple Pay in today's announcement. Aside, I really hated the fact that to watch the event you had to use a Safari browser, same with watching Swift tutorial videos on their website, using latest Chrome on a Mac...

Maybe I'm old school but I'm actually finding that payment options are getting worse, not better. This is another example of further fragmentation. Tap cards, stripe cards, chip cards - all the machines have different interfaces, some touch screen, some with pens. Not sure about you guys but I forget my credit card pin compared to my bank card pin half the time. I have a way to many accounts to remember already. What happened to just a signature?

It's like someone needs to come up with an interface for payments. That universally accepted. Think of a wall socket for power, 3 prongs, supports 2 prong interface. Works great.

Lets step back. Oh wait, we have one. It's called CASH. Cash seems to make more and more sense these days. No overage fees for using your own money. Accepted everywhere already. It doesn't get malware and steals your data. It doesn't need charging or have bugs. Doesn't seems as easy to spend when you physically see it leaving your old school wallet.

I for one won't ever use my phone for payments nor will I be looking to work on apps trying to convince others that its fairy land for payments and makes your life better because of revolutionary Apple marketing spiels. Virtual apps on the app stores, fine, I see it makes sense. Brick and mortar, I just don't see it.

[DrewAllyn]

I'm a Canadian who is temporarily in the US, and it seems so backwards to me. A signature? You mean writing on a piece of paper that probably never gets looks at allows someone to take money out of my bank account? Chip+Pin at least has a semblance of technical security.

And cash? Don't get me started. Cash can be physically lost. Cash can be stolen. When you pay with cash, you get given coins as well as the thing you are buying. Coins suck. To me, cash makes less and less sense these days. In Canada, I never carry any. In California there are enough cash only places (in 2014!) that I have some at most times.

I will probably not know it when I see it, but I look forward to the last day I touch cash.

[AYBABTME]

This, I'm living exactly the same situation right now.

Last time I came to the US, I realized my cards' magnetic bands weren't working. Would have never noticed otherwise, chips don't wear off. Had to prepare for new cards before my next trip. Chips came so long ago in Canada that I can't recall when. My surprise every time I remember they're still not here.

Then cash only places and having to receive coins; the worst. And then what do you do with the coins, hope that one day you'll get the chance to use them? That never happens. You must accumulate coins in your pockets. Accumulate discomfort and never dare throwing them away. And what's up with cents, what do you buy with a cent?

Back in Canada, all I carry is a debit/credit card (wink) and a health insurance card (wink).

[pyre]

> Chips came so long ago in Canada that I can't recall when.

I left Canada in 2008, and I don't remember chip & pin being prevalent as it is now, so it's not quite as "long ago" as you are implying.

But... you might have issues carrying just a credit card. Many places only accept debit due to there being smaller merchant fees and there are still many cash-only places (in Toronto at least).

And seriously? When I end up with cash / change in my pockets I end up using it. Your comments about "OMG! What do I do with physical money?! It's sooooo useless" are a bit hyperbolic.

[AYBABTME]

Yeah the hyperbolism was on purpose. =P

[bokonist]

And then what do you do with the coins, hope that one day you'll get the chance to use them?

You dump the coins in a change jar on top of your dresser. Then once a year or so, when you have accumulated $100 in coins, you bring the jar to a coinstar machine at your local supermarket and get the coins converted to an Amazon gift certificate.

[chiph]

I have an algorithm for minimizing my coin count. When I buy a soda or snack from a machine, I put the smallest denomination coins in first (nickles) and then work my way up (dimes, then quarters) until I have put enough money in to make my purchase. The machine gives me change, and as long as the item costs at least 25 cents (a practical certainty!), I'm sure to have fewer coins in my pocket afterwards.

[bostik]

> chips don't wear off

The chips may not, but the contact surfaces corrode. Then, when you're facing a slightly aged payment terminal with also corroded contacts, your card gets rejected no matter what you do.

So from my view, NFC in phone has two things going for it: it can be toggled on and off, effectively preventing drive-by cardjacking; and it is better protected from elements.

The fact that I have other personal reservations about contactless payments is different matter altogether.

[Serow225]

Pencil erasers do a great job to clean these type of contacts :)

[gambiting]

>>Would have never noticed otherwise, chips don't wear off.

Oh that's so not true. I keep my cards in my pocket and I already had to replace a few due to the fact that they wouldn't be recognized at terminals anymore. And I am a huge supported of chip+pin.

[fla]

Same thing here (but in Europe). I wonder if Apple Pay will really get some momentum here.

[chmars]

I am optimistic. Today, I have to remove my credit card from my wallet to hold it close to the card terminal, in the future my iPhone will be sufficient …

[tallowen]

These conclusions are surprising to me. I grew up in the states and lived in Canada for 4 years.

Though I agree with the lack of security offered by a signature, that method of payment is basically offered everywhere in the US. Compared to Canada its uncommon to be asked for a 5 dollar minimum purchase or a 50 cent surcharge for a credit card transaction. Furthermore, the credit limits in Canada seemed downright restrictive.

Say whatever about the security of credit cards in the US but as a consumer the product is much more compelling. I can go almost anywhere, rarely pay extra fees and easily spend all of my own money. Furthermore, why would I care about a signature? Yes its antiquated but who cares if its never used, I can charge back fraudulent charges pain free in the US which has not been my experience in Canada.

Basically, I think the user experience of paying money is really important, but chip and pin doesn't solve that problem.

[DrewAllyn]

I've found that the places that typically charge fees or have minimums in Canada are the tiny asian restaurants run by immigrants, and the small corner stores. Similar places in the US are the ones I find that take cash only a lot of the time.

Credit limits in Canada start out restrictive, yes, though I've generally found that if you ask for a higher limit, they will generally grant it. I've had good credit though. That probably makes a difference.

I've been lucky enough to never need to do a chargeback in Canada or the US. Maybe it's not easy in Canada.

[exelius]

The signature is for identification after the fact. So if someone steals your card, the credit card company can look at the signature for that transaction versus 10 other signatures for valid transactions and quickly know if it was your signature or not.

That said, I don't think we will ever live in a cash-less world. There are too many merchants for whom any technology is too much. Also, a lot of merchants don't want to pay credit card processing fees (which I expect don't go away with this system) and still others like to cheat on their taxes and running a cash business makes that easier.

[eddieroger]

I used my swipe-only American Visa when I was in London, and was looked at like a neanderthal. Cards are easily stolen, signatures are easily forged, but my thumbprint is pretty much only mine (yes, it can be tricked, but you still have to get it somehow). I welcome two-form, and loathe Visa and MasterCard for holding it up as long they have in the States.

[sp332]

Someone hacked Target and Home Depot POS systems recently and stole millions of credit card numbers. I really don't want someone doing that to my thumbprint. I can always get a new CC# but I'm stuck with the thumbs I've got.

[eddieroger]

Is that meant to be a real reply? I'll answer it like it is, giving you the benefit of the doubt - your thumbprint is only used to unlock the data store on the device, where the credit card token is kept. Note token, not actual credit card number or CVV code. The data stolen from Target and Home Depot was the real number, where ApplePay will use a one-time token, so even if it's stolen, it's useless once the transaction is complete. But that wasn't a real reply, was it?

[sp332]

Thanks, I had no idea why you were talking about thumbprints.

[headShrinker]

I stopped signing a long time ago. Now I scribble, draw pictures, whatever.

[spacefight]

You mean like this guy? :)

http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2006/07/29/the-credit-card...

[danpalmer]

Just a note on the fact you had to use Safari to watch the video, there's a technical reason behind that, it's not arbitrary lock-in on Apple's part.

Apple use HTTP Live Streaming for their live streams. This is an open technology they are trying to get adopted more widely (RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-...). Currently, HLS is not implemented by Chrome or other browsers, in part because Google are pushing a competing standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Adaptive_Streaming_over...).

I'm not sure it's clear cut if one is better than the other. I've used HLS and implemented a toy HLS server, and can say anecdotally that it was easy to use and quite a nice standard, although not brilliantly implemented by clients so far. Because of this, I understand why Apple continue to push HLS, and why Google continue to push DASH, and why neither will implement the other's technology in their browsers.

[lxgr]

Google actually neither supports nor ignores HLS; they provide a JavaScript interface that allows sites to support HLS, MPEG-DASH and possibly other protocols. Apple's site seems to rely on "native" HLS support; this is probably why Chrome can't stream the video.

https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54198#c1...

[snlacks]

Oh, so it's not a ploy to force safari use... it's a ploy to force HLS. Thanks for the heads up.

Edit: Just to be clear, it is really interesting and appreciate your comment, but it's still silly for Apple to limit their advertisements to Apple users.

[placeybordeaux]

Having a credit card stolen is a lot easier to deal with then having cash stolen. For that I am thankful.

[tim333]

I'm presuming cdnsteve is in the US? In the UK payment options have improved in various ways. I used to be a fan of cash as the quickest and easiest way to pay for something small like a coffee but we now have NFC where you just hold your card near and it takes like 10 seconds (mostly for the waitress to press buttons), quicker than getting change for cash. Also instant free bank transfers, chip and pin and other conveniences.

Re the iphone I think it'll use the same NFC terminal I just paid for my coffee with at Pret. Being able to wave a phone rather than my bank card is a bit ho hum. I guess for sums over £20 I could use my finger print rather than having to enter the pin as one does at the moment. The advantage seems a bit marginal.

[clarky07]

really, cash? cash sucks in so many ways. it can get lost, it can get stolen, it takes up more room, it takes longer to pay with, you have to get coins back as change. should i go on? i thought the apple pay stuff was the best part about today's event. if they can get a high percentage of merchants to accept it it will noticeably improve my life. small things like saving time checking out will make me happy therefore improving my overall quality of life.

[cdnsteve]

Cash still works when a city does not have power and ATM machines don't work. I've had a few instances of this in my life and I was caught without having much cash. Emergencies, cash still rules supreme.

The point about it getting lost is actually worse for a phone. You can also lose your smartphone. Losing your phone is a greater risk than losing the minimal amount of cash you carry on you. Think about it, if you don't have a password on your phone or you do and someone gets in, how much data are you exposing? Facebook, mass messaging all contacts, Banking, App stores, Email, the list goes on and on. Not to mention you're phones likely in a contract and you hold a few hundred dollar balance remaining on the item itself.

The problem with any technology is that even though we put our best foot forward, there will always be bugs and glitches. Cash, always, just works.

[pyre]

> it takes longer to pay with

Really? I've found that processing machines can tend to take a while. Some of them are also super slow for no reason (and if you don't go at their pace they force you to restart the transaction).

[marincounty]

Yea, I use cash for a few reason, and found it liberating. If you do use cash you need to really trust the people you live with. Actually, in my family we only have one credit card and everyone uses it just for emergencies and online purchases, and we still use checks for bills.

I applaud Apple for trying to make transactions safer, but I honestly don't even trust Apple(never gave them the family credit card for ITunes). By the way; I hardly ever use ITunes anymore. I couldn't be the only one? I'm surprised ITunes doesn't have more competition by now--a good alternative?

[rtpg]

cash wears out easily, it can be hard to have exact change.

I agree with the psychological effect of spending cash compared to a card (digits don't mean as much as handing over a bunch of paper), but things like IC cards are great for people who hate fidgeting with change (this is especially bad in places like Europe/Japan where a handful of change can end up being over $20).

And it's not like cash has disappeared. This is one more option.

[GuiA]

The problem of capitalism is that all agents want (amongst other things) full vendor lock-in. Sadly that's been our general direction for the past 50 years in most aspects of life, and there seems to be little hope for reversing the machine in thr short term.

[simonh]

As against planned economies in which lock-in by a single vendor is mandatory and essentially irreversible. The answer, as Adam Smith observed, is a well regulated market.

If you're going to make negative comments like that, it would be helpful if you were to offer some kind of alternative and why it's better.

[Adlai]

This happens when the vendor has a certain degree of control over their market; however, if the market is large enough, an overly-restricted platform becomes a liability, and customers move to better solutions.

[innguest]

That's not the "problem of capitalism", that's the problem with bad people that are power hungry and uninformed people that see absolution in centralized power.

I'm very hopeful that we will be able to reverse this trend as I see decentralization efforts everywhere (internet to press, 3d printing to manufacturing, bitcoin to currency, blockchain to public ledger, photovoltaics for power, etc).

[chj]

Well, sometimes digital payment comes with a nice discount. That's where CASH can't compete.

[cdnsteve]

Many businesses offer cash discounts, much more so than digital.

[faet]

Where I am there has been one business that offered a 'cash discount' higher than what I got back from my credit card. It went out of business.

All the gas stations give 10c/gal, my credit card gives 5%. at 3$+/gal I'm at 15c/gal.

[serve_yay]

> Maybe it's just me but I'm not drinking the kool aid about Apple Pay in today's announcement.

What does this actually mean?

[dogecoinbase]

Nothing, it's gibberish. Or, rather, a signal you can use to realize that the person who wrote it can't think critically and most likely doesn't have anything useful to say.

[VexXtreme]

Or that they don't subscribe to everything The Cult of Apple feeds them.

edit: getting downvoted like a champ. The Cult is strong with HN.

[serve_yay]

But I got down voted too, though.

It's a serious question -- what does this sort of talk actually mean? What would "subscribing to The Cult of Apple" mean in this situation? Using Apple Pay? Believing it will succeed? What?