[afafsd]

This kind of shit is why I'm pro-abortion but anti-choice.

It's clear that the lower classes are doing a terrible job of raising their own children, despite the best efforts of the rest of society to educate them, they can't escape the terrible values and role models imparted to them by their parents. And yet...

>Before they turned 18, 40 percent of the black girls from low-income homes had given birth to their own babies

[rfrey]

Why not just sterilize everyone who you consider lower class and incapable of raising acceptable children?

[prawn]

Perhaps if people didn't try to prevent sex education or access to free birth control? Instead some are pushing abstinence like it will reliably happen.

[rayiner]

Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values. Having kids is the default mode of people. The instinct to reproduce is suppressed in the wealthier class, because they have a huge opportunity cost to do so. Poor people don't have much of an opportunity cost, and indeed have economic incentives to have kids (more welfare support). 60% of girls in the study didn't have kids as teenagers, yet only 4% of the whole sample went to college. It wasn't like the people gave up a lot by having kids.

[jnazario]

> Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values.

i don't know where you get your ideas but they do not jive with many more learned observations than yours.

http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Compre... Comprehensive Sex Education for Teens Is More Effective than Abstinence

http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeatu... National Data Shows Comprehensive Sex Education Better at Reducing Teen Pregnancy than Abstinence-Only Programs

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/250073 The Effects of Sex Education on Teen Sexual Activity and Teen Pregnancy

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.ht... Comprehensive Sex Education Might Reduce Teen Pregnancies, Study Suggests

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S Kathrin F. Stanger-Hall, David W. Hall PLoS One. 2011; 6(10): e24658. Published online 2011 October 14. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0024658

related: http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-educati... Abstinence-only education does not lead to abstinent behavior, UGA researchers find

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-... UGA study: Higher pregnancy and birth rates in states with abstinence-only sex ed programs in schools

[rayiner]

I'm not saying abstinence-only education works or works better or as well as comprehensive sex education. Obviously the latter works better. I'm saying that the impact of sex education and access to contraceptives is, beyond a certain threshold, less important than socioeconomic factors: See: http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthoo...; http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/study-t....

Quote from one of the authors of a study cited in the second article:

> "The wider that gap is [to the next socioeconomic rung of the ladder] the more likely these young girls are to think, 'You know what? It's so unlikely that I'm going to get there, even if I play by the rules and stay in school,'" said Kearney. "There's less return to making that investment in education, in delaying motherhood. If you're on this low economic trajectory, there's not much cost in having a teen birth. You didn't anticipate going to college or getting married anyway.

[afafsd]

Obviously that would be part of the solution. But remember we're talking Baltimore here, not Buttfuck, Mississippi.

Compulsory abortion is a contentious issue, but at the very least I think it should be compulsory for anyone getting pregnant under the age of eighteen. If we have the legal fiction that <18 year olds are too immature even to be able to consent to sexual intercourse, I have no idea why we're okay with them actually having children of their own.

In the old days we used to adopt them out, but adoption has its own drawbacks. Now we as a society have become comfortable with the idea of abortion as not-murder I see no reason not to use it in cases like this.

[BadCookie]

We are definitely NOT comfortable with the idea that abortion is not murder. Maybe the people in your circle of friends are, but generally speaking (in the U.S. at least) many people are far from comfortable with it. I tend to be pretty liberal about most things (Legalize drugs? Sure! Gay marriage? Absolutely!) and I am quite uncomfortable with abortion. Maybe it is necessary in some cases, and I don't presume to know where the line should be drawn, but if and when it must be done, I feel that it is a tragedy. I saw my son kicking on the ultrasound screen when he was 12 weeks old, and I cringe any time somebody makes a statement with the unspoken assumption that my son did not "exist" prior to birth ... a ridiculous notion if ever there was one.

At the same time, I know how hard a baby can be. I am nearly 30 and having a child has been almost devastatingly difficult. So on one hand, I agree with you that < 18 year olds should not be having children. But to force a mother to abort her baby? Do you have any idea what you are proposing?? To me, it is beyond awful.

Maybe, instead, we should work to become a society where having a child at 17 doesn't cripple you for the rest of your life. That is the real problem, isn't it?

Edited to add: Of course, sex education should be a large part of the equation, as well as easy and preferably free access to birth control.

[prawn]

Exactly. At best, abortion is a fallback rather than a default. Surely you'd like everything you can along the lines of sex education and birth control (free condoms, free implants, etc) before you even get to abortion.

[UrMomReadsHN]

Are you sure that "we used to adopt them out" more than we do now? Since I personally know quite a few people in their 50s that were teen mothers. Also teen pregnancy in the US is decreasing and are now at historic lows according to the CDC[1]

The age of consent isn't 18 in most places either.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf

[ihnorton]

The right to bodily autonomy is not conditional on reaching an arbitrary age marker.

[khuey]

Yes it is. Parents don't ask their children whether or not they want to be vaccinated.

[ihnorton]

True, but in the US at least, there is a very long jurisprudence that says government cannot compel vaccination over parental objections, as parents are stewards of a child's bodily autonomy. Parents have rights that government does not, but those rights do not include brutal beating or mutilation -- or compelled abortion.