[stonemetal]

  So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society

If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would stay dry. Now that he has lived in your attic for so long he demands ownership since he doesn't remember living anywhere else and doesn't have anywhere else to go.

  ...in that society then by any definition you are part of that society

No, you are member of society when you live by the rules of that society, and take your punishment when you violate their rules. Doing what you want and breaking whichever rules you want because they don't apply to you doesn't make you member of society. That is not to say the law is correct, but violating them because you don't like them makes you a criminal not a citizen. If he were practicing Civil Disobedience then there would be a political component to his action instead of entitlement whining.

[Gormo]

Society is not the state, and the state is not society. The state can and does create arbitrary rules that are actually harmful to society. I consider this one of them.

Real criminals are people who do harm to others, not people who simply break bureaucratic rules.

[jacquesm]

If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not make YOU a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as though you are a criminal.

[stonemetal]

Age has no bearing on the legality of the action in question. So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old. I am pretty sure they treat you differently based on age though. I can't see them deporting a 6 month old without a care taker like they would an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to set up a mail relay to "leave" the country while you work on your citizenship papers. Nor would I be surprised to find out that it were quicker to get a Canadian citizenship and use that to apply for a US citizenship.

[leecho0]

It does. If you are born in the US, you're automatically naturalized, even if your parents are illegal citizens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#B...

6 months difference between legal and illegal seems a bit arbitrary.

[jacquesm]

> So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old.

We seem to have a different opinion on that.

Personally I think that any system - and any person - that can treat 6 months olds as criminals is seriously broken, and to be held in contempt.

[stonemetal]

It isn't like the punishment is something horrible. We don't put illegal emigrants in Leavenworth. We give them a free plane ride home. Where they are fully able to try to come into the country again legally or illegally.

Believe what you like. Personally I am happy with the fact that murder is illegal for everyone not just people over the age of 35. Personally I am happy that theft is illegal to everyone not just people over the age of 40. Personally I like the fact that courts are allowed to deal with assaults committed by minors and even have special rules regarding their care. I believe you have to have rules that apply to everybody, you can't decide that this isn't a crime today but wake up tomorrow and you get death row for it.

[jacquesm]

> We give them a free plane ride home.

For someone that was brought in to the US and is now at an age to have completed their secondary education home is the United States. No amount of paper waving and applying of the rules is going to change that.

Anyway, I'm wasting my time with this, I only wish that in your life you will never ever come up against a situation where you will be forced to realize just how cruel your stance is.

We're not debating murder here, that's just a straw man. We are not dealing with assault, committed by minors or otherwise.

The subject was immigration, specifically by minors too young to even realize what that means.

[stonemetal]

  you will be forced to realize just how cruel your stance is.

What is cruel about expecting people to live by the rules they have agreed to live by? Yes and he is a grown up now and has known for years that he is in the wrong. Instead of doing the right thing he complains about how we should all just love him for it. It would be a big relief for him if he went home no more fear of being discovered, no more I can't do that because I might be found out, the ability to get an id, bank account, health insurance, take the GRE. If he wanted to go to grad school he could be back in a semester on a student visa.(according to travel.state.gov a student visa takes at most 120 days and $300)

  The subject was immigration, specifically by 
  minors too young to even realize what that means.

No I was talking about the fact that the rules apply to everyone, and the fact that is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is.