[jadc]

Not refuting your point but it seems that other dutch cities are in the top 10 for drug use: http://www.nltimes.nl/2014/05/27/three-dutch-cities-top-ten-...

Eindhoven and Utrecht are not touristy cities. However they do have large "non-local" populations (expats in the first case, students in the second) so perhaps your point still stands that it is not the locals regularly consuming.

[jacquesm]

I know plenty of dutch people (in the thousands) but know only very few that are substance abusers. I know tons of people visiting NL too (mostly because I don't mind showing people around and I'm in online contact with quite a few people as well) and only a very small number of them don't mention the fact that drugs are legal and that this is one of their drivers for going there.

Especially in the 18-35 bracket, above that it gets a bit less wild (naturally).

All the university cities have a relatively high proportion of substance abuse and quite a lot of that will be locals in the student age bracket.

But when comparing locals to tourists the tourists definitely make up a disproportionally large chunk of the drug users. And not all of them come for a few days, quite a few people move to NL permanently because of the lax drugs laws and end up in the social care system.

It's sad because really nobody wins there and there are no easy solutions. Re-criminalizing drugs will be followed by a significant increase in crime and the Dutch ability to influence the countries around them to adopt similar legislation is without any chance of succeeding.

[mbrock]

"I know plenty of dutch people (in the thousands) but know only very few that are substance abusers."

What do you mean by substance abuse? And, how much do you really know about the drug habits of your thousands of acquaintances?

[jacquesm]

Live around Amsterdam long enough and you too will become an expert at spotting junkies. As for the habits of my thousands of acquitances because use is legal people are pretty open about it here if they use soft drugs.

The few people that I know that are into harder drugs would not advertise that too openly but if there were no downsides to hard drug abuse that you can spot relatively easily if the consumption lasts for longer than a trial period then I don't think we'd have hard drug legislation to begin with.

In America for instance people would be a lots more circumspect about their drug use (but those barriers evaporate as soon as they set foot on Dutch soil and it is party time).

[mbrock]

It didn't seem like you were talking about "junkies" when you brought up substance abuse in the context of a tourist eating mushrooms and visiting a museum. And you say that many university students engage in substance abuse; that also makes me wonder about your definition of the term, because in my experience, while university life involves quite a lot of alcohol, I haven't heard of that many students whom I would consider "substance abusers."

[jacquesm]

Substance abuse to me is defined as consuming any drug to such a level that it interferes with your normal life.

Tourists visiting cities simply because of the novelty factor of drugs being legal and then partaking in this out of curiosity are simply stupid, not addicts (they are stupid because they are not in any way positioned to know what they are buying and this results in quite a few trips to the ER each year).

But drug addiction does exist and the number of foreigners that end up in Dutch rehab programs and or shelters is huge.

It's even got a name here: drugs tourism.

Alcohol can be abused just like any other drug (and in fact, is probably the most commonly abused drug).

[mbrock]

Hm, what do you mean they aren't positioned to know what they're buying? In general?

If someone is curious about psychedelic drugs, and they visit Amsterdam because they are decriminalized there, they are therefore stupid?

I can't really imagine that's what you mean, though that's what you wrote.