I didn't use the term "work permit" but I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..."
The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that.
As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:
> I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..."
In context, you are clearly talking about working for local companies. In countries like Thailand, it's illegal to work in any way (even volunteering falls into this category in Thailand) without a valid visa and work permit.
> have never been clear in Thailand
That's disingenuous at best. Its never been "ideal" but it's always been clear - if you want to work, you need a visa + work permit. That people working "online" for foreign entities have largely slipped through the cracks is irrelevant. Speeding isn't legal or "unclear" just because you don't get caught every time.
> this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:
Since i first started looking at the options for working in Thailand about 2 1/2 years ago (and moved here ~ 2 years ago) I've read numerous articles about these announcements from provincial immigration staff, only to have them either "clarified" to mean something different, or outright denied as being incorrect.
You are right that any kind of work in Thailand, including volunteer work, requires a work permit. But you are leaving out the big gray area in Thailand between the law and what actually happens. That gray area is small or non-existent in America or Europe.
In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12), and a receipt to show you paid in case you get stopped in the next 24 hours. In Thailand there are numerous digital nomad get-togethers and communities and co-working spaces full of farang with their laptops, operating openly. The many language schools routinely employ part-time teachers who don't have proper visas and work permits.
As an American I've been trained to obey the law, and I understand that breaking the law leads to well-defined penalties (unless I'm a banker or a politician). Thais, on the other hand, treat the law (and road markings) as suggestions, with penalties that have flexible and often on-the-spot enforcement denominated in baht. So while you are right about what the law says, the reality of how it's interpreted and enforced are more important in Thailand.
> In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12)
It's different. You've just listed laws that the Thais do not enforce. The no-work-permit for a foreigner is a law that would be enforced should you be caught.
I'm well aware that many laws are not enforced well if at all in Thailand, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Generalising about 70 million people as if they are all the same isn't a great way to identify as anything other than a middle-aged farrang who wants a young brown girl(s) in his bed.
Wow, great ad hominem attack. I didn't say the laws don't exist -- I acknowledged that. How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat says something about you. That wasn't part of anything I wrote.
If anyone wants to read more of this kind of thing there's an entire forum for know-it-all expat jerks called ThaiVisa.com.
Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
No but you suggested that they can be treated as non existent because of lax enforcement/punishment, and then go on to complain about other people (apparently an entire country at that!) not following them - if you don't agree the laws should be followed, why are you complaining about other people not following them?
> How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat says something about you
It's generally sexpats who come to Thailand for some "brown strange", make no effort to learn anything about the culture or the people, and make sweeping generalisations, exactly like you have done.
> Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
The irony here is at level: ridiculous. Have you ever met any Thai people and actually spoken to them?
Let me make it crystal clear in case you can't work it out:
Not every Thai is a bad driver
Not every Thai flaunts laws/rules
Not every Thai enjoys or can even eat spicy food
Not every Thai is just a poor brown girl/boy waiting for a "rich" white prince to make her/his life better.
So lets say you are a manager for a normal 9-to-5 company, and head to Thailand on vacation. If you receive a phone call from work would that technically be illegal since you are doing your paid work from a thai beach?
I get that you are trying to push the example to the extreme, but it's hardly the same situation.
For a more realistic example: it is perfectly legal for a foreigner to come to Thailand on a business visa (without a work permit) for the purpose of meetings. There is even a specific 3 year (vs regular 1 year) business visa that is specifically designed for this situation (it cannot be used to get a work permit).
Wouldn't Thailand lose out by not allowing digital nomads to work there? What they contribute to the economy by staying there they would otherwise be forced to spend in a different country. So what is the law saying that you're not allowed to perform any "work" while you're in the country supposed to achieve, assuming you are not taking any jobs from locals?
The reality is more likely simply history - the Thai immigration system hasn't caught up with the 21st century.
The "traditional" situation is evident in other things too - for a marriage visa, there is a means test ($/month income or $$ in a bank account) - the amount required is vastly more for foreign men (marrying thai women) than it is for women (marrying thai men).
In terms of a theoretical "this is intentional" answer - I don't know, because I don't actually know what the average "digital nomad" would spend large amounts of money on - I'm living basically as a resident, I haven't left the country in 9 months, we have a car, imported our dog, etc.
The General just announced on the public television yesterday that he told the Immigration Bureau to be flexible on the Visa runs[1][2] citing lack of English teachers and academics. They're currently looking for solutions and even though I'm Thai, I really hope to hear a good news on this.
Strange that the military seems to think most of Visa runners are English teachers, though.
> Strange that the military seems to think most of Visa runners are English teachers, though
Probably just the most visible. From what I understand, plenty of schools rely on foreign english teachers but aren't prepared to hire them legally.
I'm still not really sure why they don't go the legal route - maybe the extra effort involved, or maybe because they want to pay less than the mandated minimum salary for foreigners.
For those not familiar, minimum salary is not standard across the board in Thailand, it depends on nationality. For most "western" foreigners it's 50K THB/month, whereas for Thai citizens it's about 9K THB/month.
Stickman's audience is not really digital nomads. Just look at the ads and the bar (and bar girl) reviews.
Anyone who wants to legitimately live in Thailand or work here can jump through the hoops, it's easier than most places. The crackdown is mostly aimed at migrant laborers from Cambodia and Myanmar, and at backpackers who spend their time in Thailand drinking and smoking pot.
> Stickman's audience is not really digital nomads
That's an understatement if I've ever heard one.
I skimmed the linked page and this little gem jumped out:
"Some support a Thai partner and kids, perhaps their own kids, perhaps their partner's from a previous relationship. Throughout Pattaya, Isaan and the north thousands, maybe tens of thousands, fit this profile - and they could be shut out."
I dont profess to be an expert on all things Thai, but after 2 years here, that sentence tells me plenty. You could equally describe exactly the same group of foreigners with much fewer words: "retiree sexpat".
> Anyone who wants to legitimately live in Thailand or work here can jump through the hoops
This is absolutely true. I went through the process while the protests + failed election were going on, and the biggest hassle was departments being closed/relocated, and road closures while heading to meetings with our lawyer in BKK.
The work he does doesn't relate to Thailand at all. Do you think if someone is going to stay in Thailand for 2 weeks and work online, they'll going to get a work visa? For what? Where's a company? People? Office? For 2 weeks? And they'll have to do the same thing for any country they go? That's bunk!
He doesn't break a law working online! unless he receives money to a Thai bank.
Sorry but you are wrong. Thai law states that conducting any work requires a work permit. It "relates" to Thailand because the person is physically located in Thailand.
2) According to you, if a businessman comes to Thailand to rest for 2 weeks and decided to do some work for one day on his laptop (which he brought with him) then he'll become a criminal and can be taken to a jail.
3) According to you, millions of people break this law every day: they come from their countries to other country and once they reply or send an email (or something like that) - they are criminals!!!
I don't remember the exact phrase off the top of my head but it's basically a generic description to describe someone exerting energy to do something - e.g. even foreigners who want to volunteer in Thailand need a work permit to do so.
Not according to me. The law says what it says. The chances of being arrested for working one day while on holiday are pretty much zero, but technically it's still a breach of the law.
Even someone who comes for a month and works every day has very little chance of being caught or even being an issue the police would be concerned about/investigating, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is legal.
You seem to somehow think that because this law is in place in Thailand, I'm suggesting it is in place elsewhere? Why? I never mentioned any country but Thailand.
The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that.
As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-offici...
You still need a visa, of course.