[crassus2]

If a business owner raises wages, he solves his labor problem but spends more money and reduces profit.

If instead he complains about a labor shortage, then maybe politicians will pass a law allowing more immigration and he will be able to lower his wages and increase his profit.

It's beneficial for business owners for there to be a general belief in a labor shortage but it is not beneficial for people to believe they are stingy.

[erichocean]

> It's beneficial for business owners for there to be a general belief in a labor shortage but it is not beneficial for people to believe they are stingy.

It's even better for the business owner for citizens to believe that their government plays a key role in "providing" jobs; it's what allows businesses to lobby government to change the rules to "help job creators" instead of just paying more.

Government or market, it's our choice. Lately, we're more and more choosing government to solve market "problems" that exist only because we are willing to let the government act on those problems. If we didn't, the market wouldn't have said problem.

[eru]

We wouldn't have this conversation, if immigration was sane in the first place. Ie let anyone in. It's such a waste of human labour.

[zo1]

Would never happen. People in certain countries get way too many free things and benefits, and are used to much higher standards of living. They'd be up in arms every time they saw an "immigrant" using it, or if an immigrant reduces the value of labor.

It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor. And that is only a problem because we haven't allowed free-trade and free-flow of migrants around the world from the start. Instead, we built up barriers, and we've created dams. Of course people are now going to complain when the flood gates open and a valley gets washed out.

It has to get worse, before it gets better.

[crdoconnor]

>It's really unfortunate because the only reason most people are against immigration, deep down, is that they fear they will be usurped by cheap labor.

There's many good reasons to be against immigration apart from that:

1) It lets companies play third world workers off against first world workers. We know that they tell the first world workers to shape up (i.e. work overtime; accept abuse & wage theft) or have their job shipped to China, but they actually do the same to the 3rd world workers too with the threat of insourcing.

After all, there are MANY times when it's a trade-off between more expensive but higher productivity 1st world workers and lower productivity, lower paid 3rd world workers. BOTH wages are driven down (often to unbearable levels) by tearing down trade barriers, because they can simply pick the workforce that is more desperate.

2) 3rd world countries often spend outrageous amounts of money to educate their workforce, only to have the cream of the cream high tail it to a high income country which gets all of the benefits of that education. This is a direct subsidy from poorer countries to richer countries that goes largely unacknowledged.

[zo1]

All the things you describe are symptoms of the fact that their is a wage-differential caused by trade/immigration barriers. That's why I said it has to get worse before it'll get better. Even if the current barriers create problems... More barriers will just make the subsequent correction more catastrophic for the individuals involved.

[JoeAltmaier]

If countries were people, then 2) would matter. As it is, real folks pay to have their children succeed. I would guess that many aren't as interested in Where (home or abroad) as When. So its not all bad or wrong.

[tormeh]

No no, many countries pay to have their citizens educated. The citizens often do not pay anything at all except in taxes. This means you can get the good (education) without paying for it (taxes) if you emigrate after you get your degree.

[JoeAltmaier]

Sure, I understood that.

[eru]

> Would never happen. People in certain countries get way too many free things and benefits, and are used to much higher standards of living. They'd be up in arms every time they saw an "immigrant" using it, or if an immigrant reduces the value of labor.

Don't give the immigrants any welfare then, and only let them stay as long as they have any kind of job (plus a few weeks grace period) or can prove they have enough money and a return ticket.

[crassus2]

Culture is capital. The degree of social trust and respect for property needed to create a wealthy society is an historical anomaly. If we didn't have borders, the whole world would be the third world.

[eru]

The 19th century had pretty open borders. That's when the white world got rich.