[smtddr]

I deleted the comment you've replied to because of the rapid downvotes... but screw it... I'm putting it back here. Who needs karma anyway...

To the rest of the public, we probably look like complaining oil or Walmart execs. While the rest of the general public is dealing with insane commutes and thankless/soul-crushing jobs, we got things like "The Social Network" movie, San Francisco gentrification issues, fancy catered parties and Google Glass. I can't even explain this to the rest of my family. They're like "Why are the people in your field complaining? Aren't they partying like it's 1999?" And seriously, my life is basically a dream compared to the rest of my family and past classmates not in tech. I make more money than I ever thought possible, I have no commute because BART is so close, I can WorkFromHome just about anytime I want, I work in San Franciso with lost of food options and my job is something I'd be doing on my free time anyway. I have the flexibility to be at my standing-desk on HN debating with people online while drinking my fancy glass bottle VOSS water from Norway. And the icing on the cake is probably the minimum 2 recruiter LinkedIn emails I get a week offering even more money. Also, I never negotiate salary. I just take the first offer so I assume I'm in the lower-range compared to most of HN.

Seriously, go try and explain this to the average lower/middle-class American outside of tech. This must look ridiculous. I'm right in the heart of this tech scene and I'm not even convinced we should be complaining.

[GVIrish]

No we shouldn't be 'complaining'. As tech workers we have it better than most professions in the United States. However that doesn't mean we should be happy that the powers that be are conspiring against us to not pay us what we are truly worth. Any profession shouldn't accept collusion against them by corporations, regardless of what they're currently paid.

Lawyers can charge hundreds of dollars an hour but no one begrudges them that because that is what the market for their services is. Maybe the market for strong IT workers will land in that range too if the market was allowed to work.

[throwaway5752]

I am not in SV, and completely agree with you. The optics are terrible. And beyond that... the reality is pretty bad. I don't think there's a way to spin it, a lot of the citizens of the US have had a very bad run for a very long time and would be very envious of the terms of most HN members' jobs.

I think baseball players are a fairer analogy. People love to hate on baseball player salaries, but it's not their fault that the market value of their skills is what it is. They are obligated to fight collusion and have a union anyway, though.

It doesn't help that this is non-recruitment/poaching vs blacklist. That seems greedier that people are complaining about lack of inbound recruitment vs more heavy-handed/less abstract techniques.

I think it has to be fought, because of the precedent, like companies defending copyrights.

[cwal37]

Why are you drinking expensive water from halfway around the world? As someone who subsists on lowly tap water, I had to google it, and my mind is absolutely boggled. Not exactly doing yourself any favors with that whole perception issue. A glass bottle too! Despite the ease with which you might think glass would be recycled, its place in the waste stream actually makes it much more difficult (sorting difficulty and disparity between glass). Many places that have plastic and paper recycling won't take glass.

Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voss_%28water%29

[MarkSweep]

Especially when San Fransico has some of the nicest tap water in the country, delivered by an empressivly engineered system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetch_Hetchy

I was walking around lake Elisabeth in Fremont just this afternoon marveling at the massive water pipes. There are two continuous strips of undeveloped land that go through Fremont and the South Bay that mark the travel of San Franscico's water supply.

[rpedela]

I completely agree except for your implication that the behavior of Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, etc was just some sort of trivial Silicon Valley nonsense. They actually committed a serious crime if it is true which it seems to be based on the released emails I have seen. The companies involved having to pay some money as punishment is just a slap on the wrist.

[Iftheshoefits]

It's easy to explain to lower/middle-class Americans outside of tech who are in union jobs. That's because they understand that one thing a robust union does is help prevent (or at least mitigate) this kind of collusion before it starts. My wife earns 1/3 of my salary, but does a far more important job for society. She comes from a state in which the unions used to be strong. She immediately understood what the implications of this collusion were, and didn't need me to even explain why the lawsuit is a good thing.

They understand that different workers earn different salaries, and they get that "paid below fair market wage" means what it means, regardless of what "fair market wage" is the calibration.

But we can't have unions or talk of unions in the software industry, because that might upset the rather hilariously mistaken insider perception of this industry as being a meritocracy.

[candu]

Yes, it's true that the tech industry has bad optics right now, and that this probably looks like ridiculous entitlement to just about everyone else.

That's a shame, because collusion of this sort is illegal, full stop. If our industry "complains" about it, and wins, this precedent sends a very clear message to companies - including, and perhaps especially, those in other industries - that wage-fixing pacts of this sort are not tolerated. This may not completely stop other companies from attempting similar antics, but it certainly changes the cost-benefit analysis.

[cscurmudgeon]

To the most of the world, even being poor in the US is a dream. They would never understand you parents complaining about tech people complaining.

[oblio]

Based on your account name I find it hard to take your comment seriously, but:

The 20s called. They want their cliches back. Most of the world is richer than US poor people these days. Of course, even if "most" are, there's still 1 billion people barely making enough for food, I'll grant you that.

[cscurmudgeon]

> Most of the world is richer than US poor people these days. > Based on your account name I find it hard to take your comment seriously, but:

Yeah. If you spout shallow nonsense like this, I cannot take you seriously. But out of pity, here goes:

Don't let my username fool you. I am probably much younger than you are. I grew up poor in a third-world country in awe of the average American. Now, people like me are being called "techie scum" by the same kind of people I used to adore and envy.

My point is this: Don't hate on people more hardworking or just plain lucky than you are. If you are commenting on the internet you are probably at the top of the world.

[oblio]

You say "US poor" then say that you were in awe of "average Americans". Make up your mind.

Oh, and "most" = "majority" = >51%. World population = 6.5 billion people sans US. US poor = probably less than 10k dollars per year (maybe less at PPP). So at least 3.5 billion people should be making more. Middle class Europeans, Chinese, Indians, Japanese, etc, should definitely cover my claim, based on PPP prices.

[fleitz]

This isn't a PR case, it's a court case, fuck what anyone who is not the judge thinks, lawyer up and go get some money.

Do you think the execs at Google/Apple care what Joe the plumber thinks about how much money they make. No, they're going to court to beat the settlement down.

You can be broke and have the adoration of the poor, or you can be rich and hated by the poor.

(There is a 3rd option which is chuck a few thousand at a democratic politician, and write an op ed piece in the NYT every few years about how the rich should pay more taxes, and enjoy not paying taxes.)

[mooted1]

It's frustrating that this perspective doesn't get more attention. HN and tech in general pays lip service to addressing social problems, but it's primarily concerned with congratulating its own success and getting defensive against the concerns of the rest of the economy.

No, it's not our fault that others aren't as well off. But that doesn't make mean we can't do anything to help; it does mean we should complain about getting paid marginally lower six figures with a little more self-awareness.

[6cxs2hd6]

It is disappointing that you got downvoted. Hopefully it was an accidental downvote due to HN's poor mobile browsing support, as opposed to someone being unwilling or unable to explain why they disagree with you.

[exstudent]

Sure you're drinking your VOSS but can you afford a home in SF? I would say it's a middle class aspiration to raise a family near your work. You'd be in for an "insane commute" if you had 3 kids and tried to work in the valley.

Engineer's pay pales in comparison to the value they create. That's an issue.

Average office drone X probably shouldn't even have a job so yeah, they shouldn't expect to get paid as much as a developer at Google.

[cscurmudgeon]

Ask your politicians to remove artificial building restrictions which are helping only the landlords.

[exstudent]

I agree that's a good idea but in the context of this story...

Who lives in this ultra expensive real estate? The execs stiffing the developers on pay while making bank on their work.

[cscurmudgeon]

My point is that it is not the execs fault for it being expensive. There is an artificial limit on supply. If supply is kept low, the producers (the landlords) usually benefit at the expense of poorer consumers.

[exstudent]

I agree with the real estate issue.

My point is that people CAN afford to live in these places and those people built their fortunes on the back of a labor supply with artificially suppressed wages.