[krapp]

When you think about it, once you accept that an afterlife is something worth worrying about, you're left with hundreds if not thousands of unfalsifiable, contradictory (and even antagonistic) folk tales and the task of choosing one and hoping you're right -- although for most people, this question is answered for them by the circumstances of their birth, and it seems normal, even obvious.

So really, simply choosing to live the life you want to live is only marginally less risky than living in fear of the wrath of the god or gods which happen to coincide with the cultural norms in existence at the time. Either way it seems a bit like Russian Roulette.

[lloeki]

Pascal's wager[0]: God† may or may not exist, therefore I might as well believe since I have everything to gain if I was correct and nothing to lose if I wasn't. (argument involves finite vs infinite gains/losses, see Wikipedia)

My personal wager: God† may or may not exist, but if he doesn't I'd sure as hell better make the best out of this life because there won't be another one, otherwise I might as well not exist.

† or whatever

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

[milesf]

Yeah, but how many folk tales do you know of have our calendar measured after the life of one man? 2014 AD or more fully "Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi".

How many of those tales give you a single point of failure, that if you can explain away one point then internally the whole belief system collapses? (http://bit.ly/1uNpRwT with a modern explanation at http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus)

Seems to me there might be more to the story than just a random dart throw at a wall of choices.

[GotAnyMegadeth]

That's one of the main problems with your whole argument. "How many folk tales do you know...". Just because you only know one, doesn't mean there is only one. You believe the one you are told, as do the other people else where in the world and in time.

The Gregorian calendar does attempt to count the number of years since Jesus.

The Bahá'í calendar counts since Báb had his first religious experience [0]

The Bengali calendar counts (possibly) since the reign of King of Gour, Shashanka [1]

The Buddhist calendar counts since Buddha attained parinibbāna [2]

The Hindu calendar Kali Yuga counts since Krishna left Earth to return to his abode [3]

I'm sure there are more, I only looked at a few. Look how many calendars there are that are in use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_calendars

Also, I don't think explaining anything can make a belief system collapse.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_timeline [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_calendar [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_calendar [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga

[mentat]

Systematic theology tries very hard to lay out a self coherent view of Christian theology. As much as I think that some of the conclusions it comes to are abhorrent, it is possible to do. American Christianity has a less strong relationship with rationality.

[krapp]

I don't want to pile on, but you're failing to see the implicit cultural bias in your argument. Primarily, that calendar was created and implemented by the Church, at a time when that Church dominated political and cultural life in the Western world. Of course they decided to divide the calendar there, they accepted Christianity as a first principle.

>How many of those tales give you a single point of failure, that if you can explain away one point then internally the whole belief system collapses?

All of them, if you don't believe in the existence of the supernatural. But this argument, in itself, reveals another fallacy, as it assumes the narrative consistency or cultural relevance of a religion has any bearing on its actual truth. Reality doesn't have to be logically consistent nor does it have to follow a narrative path - one only has to look at scientific progress over the last century to see that. And the argument that Christianity must be true because so many people believe in it is undermined by the fact that more people have consistently believed otherwise over time.

>Seems to me there might be more to the story than just a random dart throw at a wall of choices.

Thing is, that's what they all say.

[milesf]

If I had believed what you are saying, I'd be dead. Would not have been worth pushing through what I went through. Just sayin'.

[krapp]

Fair enough, religion has had a use for you - many religions clearly have a use for many people. But that doesn't make what you believe in objectively real.

[milesf]

Agreed, which is why it is referred to as faith. I have examined the evidence surrounding the Christian claim that Jesus Christ was and is God and that He rose from the dead, but that does not constitute proof. It is, however, evidence and something that each person will need to weight and decided for themselves.

I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want, all I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want as well. Seems like you and I are doing that, and I really do appreciate what you are saying, and especially in the way you are saying it. Cheers :)

[tspiteri]

You are entitled to believe whatever you believe. But you cannot assert that your belief system is unique because of proof that depends on that same belief.

[simonh]

The answer to each of those questions is rather a lot. The lack of knowledge of other belief systems here is utterly stunning. Did you really just put all your faith in the very first religion that you randomly happened to be exposed to, and not consider any others at all?

[milesf]

Heh. No :) Remember that my main point here was simply an experience I had facing suicidal. I came to faith in Christ back in my early 20's after thrashing and lashing out severely at many different faiths. My illness came to bear back in my 30's, and it is my belief that what happened in my 20's saved my life in my 30's.

Now I'm in my 40's. I have a phrase that I use a lot. I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want, all I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want.