[chatmasta]

This was a much more compelling argument when shared hosting was still cheaper than a VPS with root access. But now you can get a VPS from any slew of providers, like digitalocean, for $5 a month. Root access computing has never been more accessible, and shared hosting is rapidly losing any value proposition it once had. So targeting PHP purely because it's more ubiquitous on shared hosting than Rails, is making less and less sense.

[surreal]

That's still $60 a year, which is at least double the price of a simple reliable shared hosting package. The shared hosting has other conveniences too. I'm not saying it's without downsides, but there are cases for choosing it, and therefore for choosing PHP.

[jules]

You must value your time and sanity really low if you are willing to put up with PHP instead of Ruby for $30/year.

[weego]

Upload and run with all the security and management done for you is a great way to get going in web development. I don't feel that the idea that everyone doing reasonably simple PHP stuff should have root access 'makes sense' actually does.

[Kiro]

I don't want root access. I want to sign up, upload my files through FTP and have it working instantly without having to worry about anything else.

[chatmasta]

... which you can also do on platforms like digitalocean. Just spin up a preconfigured dokku droplet and git push.

[Kiro]

> Just spin up a preconfigured dokku droplet and git push.

Exactly the kind of things I don't want to be bothered with. I'm just saying that traditional web hosts suit my needs perfectly and DigitalOcean is no replacement.

[tragic]

So that would be "I don't want to be bothered with two clicks and a single terminal command." Really?

Leaving aside the whole "PHP sucks" vs "PHP is great/fine for my purposes" thing, this is really breathtaking. The fact that you can just FTP up your folder does not mean that's a sensible best-practice way to deploy anything, PHP, Ruby, Brainfuck or whatever you like. It isn't. FTP is insecure[0]. If you're balking at 'git push', then presumably you're balking at source control, which involves a lot of that sort of thing. That is just entirely unprofessional.

And 'no replacement'? FTPing a bunch of stuff into a public folder allows you to deploy something quickly and easily. So does the GP's suggested workflow. It is, exactly, a like for like replacement - except that it's a more secure and less fragile workflow.

I repeat - this has no bearing on the pro/anti-PHP holy war (I lean towards anti, but there's good PHP code out there, whatever. Hopefully a proper language spec will shove things in the right direction). If your argument for PHP is that it allows you to easily evade responsible working practices in software development, however, you're getting dangerously close to the anti-PHP stereotype of the average PHP developer.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Transfer_Protocol#Security

[teh_klev]

>FTP is insecure

Really [0]?

>however, you're getting dangerously close to the anti-PHP stereotype of the average PHP developer

I think you're getting dangerously close to coming off as condescending and insulting.

Despite what you may think, plain old fully managed shared hosting is still massively popular, especially here in the UK.

Our client base are design and development houses who want a reliable, tinker-free fully managed, predictable and secure environment. These folks aren't as backwards as you think, they already have a development workflow that works just fine. They push their stuff to their htdocs folder (via FTPS) and it just works. We even support WebDeploy (also secure) on the Windows platform so they can build MS deploy packages and push them up.

Most of our clients do use source control, they're not that naive but not all of them have drank the Github Koolade. They're happy with their own private source control arrangements.

It's an environment and process that's tried and tested so they can get on with building apps that pay the rent and keep the lights on without futzing about with dynos and droplets and the like. Not only that they can pick up the phone and within two rings get access to an experience frontline engineer who will fix a problem or answer a question within a couple of hours.

I can speak about this from experience as an engineer who works for a UK shared hoster. Admittedly we're not a bulk shared-hoster like GoDaddy, our services are tailored towards the needs of business clients, not someone's granny deploying a Wordpress site with pictures of cats.

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Transfer_Protocol#FTPS

[Kiro]

What I use it for: my own personal projects where I don't care about security. What I don't use it for: work.

Even if I can configure it down to two clicks it still comes with the cost of having to worry about maintaining a VPS.

[will_work4tears]

That workflow is pretty outdated, you know. It's about akin to using tables for layout, and about as much of a no no. I know, git can be pretty confusing, but using version control, even in a one man shop, is a huge boon.

[grandsham]

who says Kiro isn't using version control?

traditional web hosts provide a level of management that isn't present in VPSes. You may be able to get turnkey instances, but you still have to be responsible for managing them and maintaining them. Vs a traditional webhost where you don't have to worry about all that.

You can claim that its "outdated" and "akin to using tables for layout", but its also still a very valid workflow for a lot of people who don't want to be sysadmins in addition to developers

[will_work4tears]

It's a strong implication.

Kiro quotes two items from the parent, and says he doesn't want to be bothered with "those" things.

Kinda implies he doesn't use git, since that was one of the two items quoted.

[ben0x539]

Compared to the php workflow, this is pure technobabble.