[Karunamon]

We are talking about why your moral stance should be applicable to me, complete with comparisons to a police state (of all things..)

You haven't convinced me yet.

The fact that you feel there are ethical problems is again a philosophical position.

[shmerl]

The premise of DRM is the same as police state ideas, that doesn't require convincing, it's the very definition of it. Whether you find it acceptable or unethical is another question however.

See also updates above about other points.

[Karunamon]

You'll forgive me for regarding your implication that "Log in to play your games" is somehow equivalent to a police state, as utter nonsense.

[shmerl]

If that wasn't clear, here is a simple explanation.

DRM is built on the presumption of guilt and overreaching preemptive policing. These are quite standard features of some abusive police state ideology. It was well spelled out by one Sony exec: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_rootkit#Background

> "The industry will take whatever steps it needs to protect itself and protect its revenue streams... It will not lose that revenue stream, no matter what... Sony is going to take aggressive steps to stop this. We will develop technology that transcends the individual user. We will firewall Napster at source - we will block it at your cable company. We will block it at your phone company. We will block it at your ISP. We will firewall it at your PC... These strategies are being aggressively pursued because there is simply too much at stake."

Concise and to the point. That's what DRM is about. I.e. assuming everyone potentially criminal, and policing everyone preemptively in abusive fashion which violates one's privacy (because DRM is found in your private digital space). This core idea applies to any DRM by its definition.

I hope this makes the analogy with police state approach more clear.

[freehunter]

I think what you mean is that DRM is like the police, and bad DRM is like a police state. The police are there to enforce what you can and cannot do. Do they stop 100% of people? No. Bad people can get away with bad things that good people can't, just like pirates can break pretty much any DRM system. But in a normally functioning society, good (normal) people don't really notice that the police are there. They understand the rules and they try to stay within the rules. The rules mainly prohibit things they wouldn't have done anyway, like cheating in a multiplayer game or distributing the game to hundreds of other people for free. That's not infringing their rights in any way, I'm sure you can agree. This is how Steam works.

However, bad DRM exists. You have to authenticate to their servers every time you play, you have to stay online all the time even in a single player game, if their server goes down you lose your games, they can take your games away from you whenever they want. The DRM is noticeable from the beginning because of the bureaucracy the lack of trust that comes with it. You're being punished just for the fact that you exist. You have to install rootkits or shut down/uninstall programs on your computer. There's no benefit to you other than the fact that, after they have been satisfied, they let you play the game. That DRM is like a police state. That DRM, however, does not describe all DRM. This DRM describes Sony's DRM, or SecuROM DRM, or Games for Windows Live.

See the difference (probably not)? I know I'm wasting my time, you've made it clear that your opinion won't be changed, but just know that not everyone agrees with you. Steam is DRM, and that's not a bad thing. You can have a local police department without existing in a police state.

[shmerl]

> I think what you mean is that DRM is like the police, and bad DRM is like a police state.

I see any DRM as bad / police state like.

Policing can be good when it serves the proper purpose and doesn't cause other problems. Overreaching policing is bad however. I.e. preventing crime in general is good. Putting police surveillance in every home to do that is bad. I already explained above why any DRM is always overreaching. I.e. presumption of guilt and violating one's digital space. In case of Steam, its DRM is run on your computer, so it's analogous to putting policing mechanisms in your own house.

What kind of DRM does not have these characteristics? I know of none. DRM is defined as such, and as such is always bad.

[freehunter]

I know I'm wasting my time, you've made it clear that your opinion won't be changed, but just know that not everyone agrees with you. Steam is DRM, and that's not a bad thing. You can have a local police department without existing in a police state.

[enraged_camel]

He's not comparing the two. He is not saying "DRM is like a police state."

He's saying that both DRM being a bad thing and a police state being a bad thing are self-evident truths.

(I'm not taking sides, just hoping to clarify.)

[shmerl]

To clarify - I am saying that DRM shares core ideas with police state methods. Some of them. I explained that above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070304