[zissou]

I used to be gung-ho about convincing economists to use Python (started econpy.org in the 1st year of my PhD in economics, stopped updating it after 2 years). But now I just don't care. The vast majority of economists are horrible programmers, however most know how to script in at least 1 language, and a small number of them are actually really good at scripting. An extremely small number of economists know they're way around at least 1 entire general purpose programming language.

It seems that every time this gets brought up online a sea of infamous Fortran-programming-economists always tell you how fast Fortran is compared to everything else, signing it with "Fortran or GTFO". I've met hundreds/thousands of economists and econ grad students at schools ranked from 1 to 200, and I don't recall a single one that actually used Fortran (I'm sure there is a non-zero quantity -- I probably just haven't cared to talk with them b/c they are most likely macro theorists).

The fact of the matter is that in economics graduate school, your professors could care less what language you use. It isn't an algorithm competition, it's a story telling competition. But the type of story telling economists do is no less noble than writing elegant algos. Writing a story based on economic mechanisms and behaviors and supporting it with quality data, sound statistics, and logical/exact theories is no simple task.

[bachmeier]

"The vast majority of economists are horrible programmers, however most know how to script in at least 1 language, and a small number of them are actually really good at scripting. An extremely small number of economists know they're way around at least 1 entire general purpose programming language."

As an economist whose hobby is the study of programming languages, you can imagine the frustration that I feel. What I have found works best is to make grad students use basic functional programming techniques. Everything they do is just a few lines long. As opposed to a 250-line heap of garbage with three nested for loops.

[JAlexoid]

I'm sorry, but that it's a wasted emotion. Economists are not software developers. They do the minimal they need and nothing more. It's like complaining that a masseur has poor baking skills.

Get over it! It's a support tool for them and until they demand that you take their code as a perfect example, developed have no need to complain.

[avemuri]

It's more like saying a masseur doesn't have a deep knowledge of anatomy. For most healthy people it wouldn't be an issue if the masseur just did what they were taught, but they'll consistently be suboptimal and will occasionally do some real damage. See the recent high profile errors with economists using excel.

[bachmeier]

When you have to review their code, you have a very good reason to care about what it looks like. I also feel that I have an obligation to do what I can to improve the accuracy of our research.

"They do the minimal they need and nothing more."

In other words, they work on their program until it runs to completion without throwing an error message.

[cwal37]

Hey, that's really neat. I'm doing a post-masters right now in energy economics and have been transitioning into using python for everything (from previously using Matlab or whatever was available), but I'm eyeing an economics PhD down the line.

You have any advice/opinions on economics PhDs?

[bachmeier]

Do you have any specific questions? I teach in a PhD-granting department and do research in energy economics. (I'm an associate editor of one of the energy field journals.)

[cwal37]

Huh, some of your papers sound like ideas I sketched out in my commonplace book (particularly the ones on oil prices in the context of the larger economy), looks like I'm a few years behind.

I guess my biggest concern is the viability of pursuing a PhD in economics without having a previous degree in econ. I have a BS and MS in environmental science and an MPA in energy policy/economics. I think I have stronger scientific chops than many economists, but I don't know how valuable that actually is.

Also, it seems to me that the general market for energy economists is very strong, and will remain that way for quite some time. Do you think that's accurate?

I love plowing through data and developing methods and analysis to try and draw out relationships and show why things are what they are. I know that sounds incredibly vague, but as far as I can tell economics is the field that most closely aligns with this in the context of energy and the environment.

[bachmeier]

"I guess my biggest concern is the viability of pursuing a PhD in economics without having a previous degree in econ."

It's hard to say without knowing more about your background, but many have done it before. A degree in econ is useful but by no means necessary.

You should probably worry more about your math training (have you taken real analysis or another course with real proofs?) than your econ training. I had three calculus classes and linear algebra. The first week of classes the professors were talking about quasiconcavity and the Bellman equation. I was lost. I worked 80-90 hours a week the first year in order to catch up.

"Also, it seems to me that the general market for energy economists is very strong, and will remain that way for quite some time. Do you think that's accurate?"

I have no specific data, but yeah, the market for economists in most fields is strong. Our program is not highly ranked, yet almost all of our PhD's are able to get tenure track jobs with reasonable teaching loads. To my knowledge environmental/energy policy is a hot field right now, particularly if you can bring in grants.

"as far as I can tell economics is the field that most closely aligns with this in the context of energy and the environment"

You should also consider PhD programs in agricultural economics or environmental economics. Highly-ranked economics programs often have a theoretical/mathematical focus that doesn't fit with what you want to do. I know from experience that energy isn't fully respected in economics departments.

[cwal37]

Thanks a bunch!

I actually have a friend in Cornell's PhD economics program right now, and he's warned me about math (and he majored in math) and that Real Analysis in particular is crucial. That's what most concerns me, as I've leaned on my physics-PhD significant other in the past for some math-related help.

That's a really good point about field-specific economics programs, I hadn't really considered that, but it makes a lot of sense given my interests and current abilities. It seemed to me that energy was weirdly neglected when looking through programs (even though it has so many neat peculiarities and inefficiencies), so it's good to know I'm not the only person who has noticed that.

Thankfully, I'm not looking at it for the immediate future as my current position will last a few years (we have boatloads of funding and bipartisan support), and I'm at possibly the easiest national lab to get a staff position and advance without a PhD (Oak Ridge). Down the line though, I know I love academia and teaching, so I'll probably go back, and your advice is super helpful to think about in the interim, thanks again!

[bachmeier]

Best of luck whatever you end up doing.