[seanmcdirmid]

> And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and smoother performance.

WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally, its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. And then there is WP and WinRT, which are WPF derivatives.

> You're making it sound most developers using text editors are old kooks with 1-foot into retirement. How disconnected are you? What % of OSS projects on GitHub do you think use an IDE? More or less than 50%? https://github.com/trending

GitHUB isn't even a small percentage of all developers, it only represents public OSS projects. There is lots of value in a good IDE, language designers and implementors who treat it as a second class concerns are going to pay the price in popularity eventually.

> They actually have quite a few IDE people on the team with many years of experience developing IDE tooling. Any immaturity is simply that the DartEditor is still so young.

That isn't what I've heard. Anyways...Eclipse...wow...I don't see anything good coming out of that.

> It was only recently that they rewrote the old Analyzer that was previously written in Java to Dart, which now runs much faster.

Fast tools mean nothing if the UX is crap. Also, incremental performance is quite different from batch performance that you expect from the command line.

> Running inside Parallels likely accounts for about 10-15% performance overhead, it doesn't explain 2.3x worst performance.

In general, I've seen the CLR beat Mono anywhere from 1.5 to 3X. So if Mono is coming up faster than the CLR, something is probably seriously off.

> Language VM features that are optimal for compiler writers doesn't translate itself into killer general-purpose language features.

Right. But it does give you lots of options in one's managed time live programming language.

[mythz]

> WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally

So neither that ships with Windows then?

> its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI.

Do you think they've been overrun by developers breaking out WPF? Even when MS is trying to push everyone into creating WindowsStore apps? I hardly ever see any mainstream desktop apps written in WPF. What are some of the most popular WPF apps developed outside of Microsoft?

> WP and WinRT, which are WPF derivatives

How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from?

> GitHUB isn't even a small percentage of all developers,

So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's?

> There is lots of value in a good IDE

There's also lots of value in small, wrist-friendly languages that don't need an IDE and have a good story for text-editors / command-line. You may want to check out what the dev story is for Clojure / Go / Node which support live-reloading / auto-running of modified tests and fast dev iteration times without IDE's.

[seanmcdirmid]

> How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from?

They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either.

> So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's

It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing (they weren't that good until then) since the late 90s or even mid 00s. It is taking awhile, but its happening. We will see more language designs that don't bother with IDE independence for better features. Couple that in with the Bret Victor candy, and there is only one way to get there.

> There's also lots of value in small, wrist-friendly languages that don't need an IDE and have a good story for text-editors / command-line. You may want to check out what the dev story is for Clojure / Go / Node which support live-reloading / auto-running of modified tests and fast dev iteration times without IDE's.

I know all about those systems, and they aren't very inspiring. We can do much better than that if we don't limit ourselves to languages just being syntax/semantics/and a compiler.

[mythz]

> They derived WPFs design and API language, along with XAML. Its not like MILCORE was written in C# either.

Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011.

> It shows nothing. IDEs haven't really been a thing...

Not nothing, apparently it's enough to declare text-editor devs an extinct species and decree the new generation of devs will skip text editors entirely and only consider IDE-coupled languages.

> Couple that in with the Bret Victor candy, and there is only one way to get there.

Bret Victor showcases the benefits of previewing changes in real-time like the kind you can see with Clojure in LightTable or Swift's playground. Late-bound languages are more suitable for effecting real-time changes than static pre-compiled IDE-coupled languages, the kind that was being done in Smalltalk decades ago, even VB6 had better live-editing support than C#/VS.NET does now with Edit/Continue.

[seanmcdirmid]

> Got it, so it's derivative in the same way Chrome is a derivative of IE because HTML/CSS. Only a little less so due to different namespaces, missing controls, completely different runtime and incompatible desktop modes - maximizing developer happiness since 2011.

WinRT really is WPF cleaned up a bit and done with a different language (though it supports .NET bindings easily), and ya, missing a bunch of features that even I sorely miss (though to be share, pixel shaders are kind of dangerous!). Same people, same API architecture, same etc...I still prefer WPF, but because I'm writing dev environments and not apps.

> Not nothing, apparently it's enough to declare text-editor devs an extinct species and decree the new generation of devs will skip text editors entirely and only consider IDE-coupled languages.

IDEs weren't a thing until recently (the last 15 or so years). Text-editor devs aren't extinct, just shrinking in numbers. Extinction doesn't occur for another 20 or so years. Anyways, you need IDE believers to make good IDEs, you can tell when an IDE has been pushed out by non-believers (it sucks, because they don't get it).

> Bret Victor showcases the benefits of previewing changes in real-time like the kind you can see with Clojure in LightTable or Swift's playground. Late-bound languages are more suitable for effecting real-time changes than static pre-compiled IDE-coupled languages, the kind that was being done in Smalltalk decades ago, even VB6 had better live-editing support than C#/VS.NET does now with Edit/Continue.

Why must an IDE-coupled language "static" or "pre-compiled"? I agree C# isn't very live nor would I try to make it be live, but the CLR provides a lot of the tools needed to get there (quick real-time tree compilation). I'm working on this right now...(see [1] again if you haven't, and that's from last year).

Your standards of live editing are kind of low, but that's an argument for some other time.

[1] http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/liveprogr...

[dragonwriter]

> IDEs weren't a thing until recently (the last 15 or so years).

IDEs originated in the 1970s, and became popular in the 1980s.

> Text-editor devs aren't extinct, just shrinking in numbers.

The line between "text editor" and "IDE" is so blurry now that there's probably not a clear line between text editor devs and IDE devs. (And there's plenty of multilanguage devs whose preference on the "editor-IDE" axis probably varies by language -- certainly the level of tooling sophistication I want with Ruby is different than I want with C# or Java.)

And more and more modern languages have both "doesn't need an IDE as much as older static languages" and "can more easily support IDE tooling than older dynamic languages" as features, so there's plenty of fuel for both sides. I don't think the preference for lighter tooling is dying out.