[aianus]

Using a credit card online isn't painful but it's more painful than using Bitcoin. For one, I don't need to memorize an arbitrary 16 digits + CVV2 + Expiry Date. Nor do I have to enter my billing address for virtual goods or deal with chargebacks and replacing my card if the merchant loses my card information. One time my bank just canceled my card without giving me any reason besides 'security' and mailed me a new one. What would I have done if I were traveling at the time or needed to buy something in the meantime?

Besides that, if you've ever tried doing anything online besides the straight purchase of a good or service (think forex trading, gambling, remittances) you'd agree Bitcoin is light-years ahead of the prevailing payment methods.

[mpyne]

> One time my bank just canceled my card without giving me any reason besides 'security' and mailed me a new one. What would I have done if I were traveling at the time or needed to buy something in the meantime?

What would you do if your wallet.dat were obtained, unlocked and emptied out while traveling? Being able to call your bank while you're traveling to get stuff sorted out is a feature, not a bug.

Of course, you'd probably just point out that you're not dumb enough to use a simple passphrase and that you can protect your wallet.dat.

But that's not going to apply to the majority of people who currently shop online, which is why the current system, where merchants and banks cooperate to detect fraud in many cases even without consumer help, is so important.

You can't do that at all when running your own Bitcoin payments, and if you use an exchange to do so on your behalf then you leave yourself liable to being irreversibly MtGox'ed.

Bitcoin certainly didn't invent fraud and embezzlement but it doesn't make people immune from that either, and Bitcoin-using schemes which fail to account for that are dead-men walking.

[battani]

Yeah I mean those are some problems but they're 1) not huge and 2) I don't think creating and adopting a volatile virtual currency is necessarily the best solution to those problems.

"I don't need to memorize an arbitrary 16 digits + CVV2 + Expiry Date"

Most times, you enter that information once (1-time mental cost) and the platform saves that info for you. Think Uber, Amazon, Venmo, and others. Also soon with your mobile wallet, the experience will only get more streamlined.

Also, if you think about it, how do you pay using bitcoin today? First you set up a wallet (with Coinbase, Bitpay, or someone else). Then you get verified. Then you purchase bitcoin, hoping to get it at a good price.

Then you browse the web hoping your merchant integrates with Coinbase/Bitpay. If not, they'll display a bitcoin address, that you'll then have to paste into your wallet, enter the correct amount, etc.

Even if we do argue that this will only get better, it's not gonna get much better than tapping "Buy" on your mobile wallet, that's already connected to your bank account/card. User experience is not an area where bitcoin adds value.

"deal with chargebacks and replacing my card if the merchant loses my card information"

Chargebacks are a form of consumer protection. Eliminating them benefits the merchant, at the expense of the consumer.

"One time my bank just canceled my card without giving me any reason besides 'security' and mailed me a new one. What would I have done if I were traveling at the time or needed to buy something in the meantime?"

Yes, that sucks. But how often does that happen? How big is this problem? And is adopting bitcoin (already a huge cost: mental adjustment, buying bitcoin, etc.) really a good solution to this problem? Or is it just switching to a bank with better customer service? Simple, BOA (in my experience), etc.

"Besides that, if you've ever tried doing anything online besides the straight purchase of a good or service (think forex trading, gambling, remittances) you'd agree Bitcoin is light-years ahead of the prevailing payment methods."

Yes, forex trading and gambling are absolutely fantastic to do with bitcoin. But this reinforces the argument that bitcoin is a speculative financial asset, rather than a currency used in day-to-day activities.

The remittance market is ripe for disruption, but a gateway model such as the one offered by Ripple would better fit this problem, in my opinion.

[aianus]

> Chargebacks are a form of consumer protection. Eliminating them benefits the merchant, at the expense of the consumer.

I wouldn't have to do any chargebacks or get my card replaced if I'd made my purchase with Bitcoin instead of sending my credit card details to a merchant which subsequently gets hacked. Also, competitive merchants would have to pass on the cost savings.

> Yes, that sucks. But how often does that happen?

Seems to happen pretty often. Target, Sony, etc all pretty recent.

> Yes, forex trading and gambling are absolutely fantastic to do with bitcoin. But this reinforces the argument that bitcoin is a speculative financial asset, rather than a currency used in day-to-day activities.

I don't mean trading or holding bitcoin. There are many people who trade forex (like oanda.com) and gamble on sports or poker (like betfair.com) every day. The current payment methods make it difficult and expensive to deposit and withdraw on those types of sites because of VISA and MasterCard's rules and duopoly.

[battani]

I guess your argument is then about security. Your funds are as secure as whoever is holding them, whether it be in bitcoin or regular fiat through CC.

If you place your bitcoin on Coinbase, Bitpay, an exchange, or even on your own local wallet/cold storage, and one of these gets hacked (e.g. a hacker gets access to your private key), your funds are gone forever.

If you give your credit card info to a merchant and they betray your trust and charge you, you will 1) not lose your funds because you'll just charge them back, 2) they will be blacklisted by their credit card provider if chargebacks are too high. So this incentivizes merchants to not charge you illegally if they want to stay in business.

The Target, Sony hackings were indeed unfortunate, but they are exceptions rather than the norm. And they can also be likened to the many exchanges and wallets that have been hacked in the bitcoin world. Except in the latter case, consumers could not get their money back.

"There are many people who trade forex (like oanda.com) and gamble on sports or poker (like betfair.com) every day. The current payment methods make it difficult and expensive to deposit and withdraw on those types of sites because of VISA and MasterCard's rules and duopoly."

Yes I agree with this. Trading and gambling is really easy to do with bitcoin. And yes it's a nightmare with fiat. But I think most of these issues are due to government regulation (which is expected for these activities).

[icebraining]

The Target, Sony hackings were indeed unfortunate, but they are exceptions rather than the norm.

No, they're just the high-profile. Credit card hacks are happening constantly. A quick Google search shows crafts store Michaels (3 million CCs), White Lodging Services and Creathe Group (5 million CCs), all just announced since March. Last year, Adobe lost more than 100 million CCs.

There was $11 billion in CC fraud just in 2012!

And they can also be likened to the many exchanges and wallets that have been hacked in the bitcoin world.

Exchanges are not comparable, the only people who need to keep money there are traders.

As for wallets, that's true, but the difference is that there's only a single place with the data, instead of dozens or even hundreds of retailers each with a copy of a single CC. You'll probably never have a single wallet service with dozens of millions of accounts, such as Target, Sony and Adobe had.

Except in the latter case, consumers could not get their money back.

Anyone who thinks that comes for free is naive. You're paying, alright. Just indirectly.

---

This doesn't mean Bitcoins are the answer. For example, here in Portugal, we have had sane push-based payment mechanisms for years, and requiring credit cards is thankfully rare. But I've never seen such a service work internationally.

[sanswork]

The difference is people stealing all those credit cards could only use a very small number of them before they were all cancelled/replaced.

If someone broke the security on a wallet hosting service they could clear out every customer completely instantly with no recourse.

>You're paying, alright. Just indirectly.

And so are bitcoin users that shop in most stores that also accept credit cards. It's priced in for everyone.

[aianus]

> And so are bitcoin users that shop in most stores that also accept credit cards. It's priced in for everyone.

You can get 3% cashback for using Bitcoin on gyft (and by extension Amazon)