[protonfish]

Everyone is throwing around "nice" like it is a well-defined term and not a fluff word. Let's try to define it a little better.

In my experience, there are 3 types of "nice". One is where somebody is subservient to you. Another is when a person is polite and tells you what you want to hear. The other is where somebody is honest and can be counted on to do what they promise.

I propose that you cannot be either #1 or #2 and #3.

A subservient doormat may seem great, but don't forget that you are not the only person they will grovel to. They will follow the most dominant person, and you can't count on it being you forever. They are cowards that cannot be trusted.

#2, pulling no punches, is a two-faced liar. They are the primary suspects for back-stabbing. Being "nice" is used as a tool to gain your trust.

#3 can be rude and abrasive. If they are angry with you, they will act angry with you. They will tell you the truth, even if it hurts your feelings.

Being rude and being duplicitous are almost always opposites, but both can be described as being "not nice." If I had a beach house, I'd like people to be the #2 type of nice. My goal there would be to relax, so please don't burst my obliviousness bubble. But when I get back to work I'd rather have my allys be #3.

[dhimes]

I believe the conversation is about being like #3, but without being rude and abrasive. It's possible. Being honest and reliable does not excuse rudeness and abrasiveness. In my experience, rudeness and abrasiveness are indicative that the person has not had to/been able to grow up. Perhaps they have extreme talent. Perhaps they have lived a life of extreme focus. Perhaps their moms still look after them. The reason doesn't much matter.

#s 1 and 2 are bullshit.

[protonfish]

I would argue that the qualities of "rude" and "abrasive" are similar to "offensive" - They are judgements by the observer, not objective qualities of the observed. What is abrasive to one person might be fine for another. If you are the type of person that gets his panties in a bunch when somebody says something you don't like, maybe you are the one who still needs his mommy?

[dhimes]

Indeed, society's norms are something like GAAP, but for interactions. There will certainly be deviations, a population of observers party to those behaviors would agree.

But then there are those behaviors that a majority of observers would classify as 'douche-y' or something synonymous. In that sense they are qualities of the observed. Sometimes it's accidental- we've all done that. Most of us feel a little bad when we realize that we've unintentionally hurt someone's feelings, even if we think we've done it for their own good. Sometimes the person has no idea- missing the social cues that they've said or done something painful to another. These people can't be blamed any more than an albino can be blamed for the color of her skin.

Then there are the assholes, the ones who are smug about their 'directness,' who take some pride in keeping others off balance. Kind of like the big loudmouth at the bar that nobody messes with because they are simply intimidated, these people seem to get some social ego benefit from their behavior. They have no class.