Ask HN: living and working in US

[seminole]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to ask for your comments. I'll try to keep this as short as I can.

I'm a 26yo enterprise Java dev and the sole provider for my little family (wife and toddler). We're EU citizens. We spent the last 8 years in UK, and have recently moved to Belgium looking for a change. And change we got, but not the good kind. So want to move again. My wife keeps saying we should move to US, perhaps California. She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people. And she's probably right about these, but I'm a little scared about what we'd be giving up. Namely,

40h workweek 5 weeks of holiday a year free/cheap health insurance free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter.

Am I being paranoid? I hear stories from both ends of the spectrum. Some say they've been working 60h/week with no holiday for 5 years, in which case all that sunshine and nature have as much value as a travel brochure. But others claim that US is developer's paradise. And while health insurance is expensive, some get it from their companies or it's offset by the substantially higher salary. Some claim that public education system is also underrated.

What's your opinion/experience with this? What would you expect re: work/life balance & health insurance in a decent (choose your own definition) company? Any comments on school education? General cost of living?

Also, I do realize US is huge, but California is the only state I get to hear about - please give a shout for your favorite place!

Thanks a lot for comments, they are important to us.

[davidw]

> She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people.

That sounds kind of like Italy. Maybe not as much sunshine as California here up north, but it's certainly better than the UK or Belgium from that point of view.

Of course, the economy is in the tank, but maybe you can work remotely or something.

Going to the US is not easy: you'll have to find a company willing to hire you.

That said, if it's what you want, don't let the naysayers get in your way - go on a vacation there, travel around some, meet people, see what day to day life is like, and then go for it! It's not perfect, but there's a lot of good stuff there - much more than some of the haters here give it credit for.

Some people work crazy hours, many people don't. As someone who is likely to have a good job, you'll have decent health care, even if the system is a bit screwy.

Edit: a few other places to check out might be:

* Colorado (Boulder, Denver, Ft. Collins). Snowy, but still quite a bit of sun. If I ever went back to the US, this is high on my list of places to check out.

* Austin, Texas. I don't know much about it, but it's supposed to be a nice place, and definitely sunny/hot.

* Bend or Ashland in Oregon. Not as sunny as California, and cold in the winters. Not as many jobs either, but nice smallish towns.

[tubbzor]

Since you mentioned it, I'll throw a shameless plug for Fort Collins (and Colorado in general). We do get snow from about November-March but its generally sporadic, however, there's usually 2-3 big snows a year. Despite this, we still get (on average) 300 days of sunshine a year [0].

For work, Foco has offices for Hewlett Packard, Intel, AMD, Avago, National Semiconductor, LSI, and Wolf Robotics. If the start-up scene is more your taste, Fort Collins-Loveland was rated 2nd in the "Top 10 Metro Areas for High-Tech Startup Density" in the United States (with Boulder at #1) in 2013 [1], and is also home to a start-up incubator called Rocky Mountain Innosphere [2].

There are miles of bike trails [3] all over the city and many places to hike nearby as well [4]. Needless to say lots of people are out and about being physically active around here and biking is often the preferred mode of transportion.

Other than that I just personally enjoy the atmosphere out here. Since we have a university in town there are tons of little hole-in-the-wall coffee shops open 24/7 (or close to it) and lots of specialty food in the form of restaurants, food trucks, food carts, ect. Old Town area is the main social scene and is always bustling whether people are out getting a bite to eat, walking around, or there are often various festivals taking place. Micro-brew Beer is also a huge part of the culture around here (at least in my circles), as fort collins is home to New Belgium, Odell, and many other micro-breweries and holds a huge beer festival called New West Fest every year. In all, it's a quirky little city that I quite enjoy.

Disclaimer: I've lived in the Loveland/Ft. Collins area for 6 years now and just finished my CS degree at Colorado State University.

[0] - http://www.fcgov.com/visitor/fcfacts.php

[1] - http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/2013/08/young-hightech-firm...

[2] - http://www.innosphere.org/

[3] - http://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/pdf/bike-map-front.pdf

[4] - http://alltrails.com/us/colorado/fort-collins?ref=header

edit: formatting

[ashazar]

Just sharing my bookmarks that were previously discussed on HN. Hope you can find some useful info in them. Best of luck for your journey.

1. What's the best place in the U.S. to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6702111

2. What's the best place in Europe to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6703058

3. Where can I move cheaply to work by myself for a year? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531

4. A "Hacker's" Guide to the Bay Area http://islandofatlas.net/2013/10/04/a-hackers-guide-to-the-b... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6502430

[bowlofpetunias]

"And change we got, but not the good kind."

This raises a bit of red flag, because lots of people migrate with a vague idea of "the grass is greener" without knowing what they're getting into. Since Belgium is not a bad place to live, I'm wondering what it is you're running away from.

And since you put a work/life balance, cheap health insurance and cheap education top of your priorities (all things Belgium already offers) and don't seem to know very much about the US, I wonder why you're not considering the much less complicated and safer option of another EU country? (Also, of all continental European countries, Belgium is probably most like the UK with it's post-industrial similarities.)

What is it that makes you think you and your family be happy in the US?

I'm getting a strong sense you don't really have a clear picture of that, and are just looking to flee to a magical land far away from your current troubles. I live in a place with lots of expats, and that scenario usually doesn't work out well.

[abcd_f]

My all time favourite place in North America is Europe.

I am a European. I lived in US for two years, I lived in Canada for 15. I also lived in Sweden and Japan. States are good because it's just one big Walmart - everything is ridiculously cheap, but what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality. Canada in this respect is somewhat better, but it has the same problem - it feels ... I don't know ... diluted? Too much stuff, too little substance. It is nice, it is comfortable and affordable, but - and I am dumbing it down considerably - you can't get a decent croissant, because nobody simply gives a shit about getting them right.

On the other hand, the grass is always greener on the other side. If you move, you will have at least a couple of years of excitement and novelty.

PS. And generally working too much and not enjoying life is in fact the biggest lifestyle issue in States and Canada. No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing.

[davidw]

> what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality

To some degree, yes, but I feel that's something that has been changing some. In the town of 150K people I'm from, you can now get a decent variety of food products from Italy. They're expensive, but at least you can get them. 20 years ago, there's no way you could have even found that stuff. So I think some people are starting to 'get it'.

As another example, when my parents moved to Oregon in the 70ies, you could count the number of wineries on one hand. Now there are plenty of them, and some of them produce some decent wine.

[mhurron]

> the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing

I went there to eat, how is this a problem? I don't like people, having to talk to them when I'm trying to have dinner would be annoying.

[mkr-hn]

> No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing.

We use bars and the internet for that.

[tomp]

Where in the US did you live, and which places in Europe do you prefer? Both are huge, with significant regional differences.

[KhalPanda]

Just out of curiosity (as a UK resident), how would you plan on moving to the states from a legal standpoint? As far as I'm aware, if you don't have immediate family who are US-citizens, $500k-$1M to invest in a business, marry a US citizen or take employment on a H1-B (not easy), it's not possible?

[neverminder]

I'm an EU citizen as well and I have to agree with you, aside from all you've mentioned plus winning a green card - moving to US is anything but trivial.

[DrJokepu]

The Diversity Visa Lottery will be likely repealed in the near future by the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 so that won't be an option for very long.

[nobodysfool]

That's not likely.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s744

It only has a 43% chance of passing. It's been up to the house for a year now, it's probably going to be shelved until after 2016.

[KhalPanda]

Plus, the United Kingdom aren't eligible for the lottery anyway. So I guess it depends where OP is from.

[e15ctr0n]

The Diversity Visa Lottery can be granted on the basis of your birthplace, not your current place of residence or current nationality.

[RickS]

If there's one place you'll find a 40 hour work week, it's enterprise Java. Most of the glorified 80 hour work weeks occur in the startup realm. I'm generalizing significantly here, but enterprise is stereotypically a "clock in, check out" type of job at larger companies, and securing something that pays well without sucking up your whole life is very easily doable.

Are those 5 weeks of holiday paid? If so, that is not a common benefit in America.

Without citizenship, your healthcare coverage is likely to be either costly or limited.

Scholarships and grants exist, but a free ride through college is also rare.

If you were already a US citizen, this move would be possible (but even for the majority of Americans, what you ask for is off the table), but since you're not, I say move to Canada.

Specifically, Toronto. As metropolitan as any American city (with a sufficiently large job market), numerous strong immigrant communities, better healthcare, great food. Nice and clean, fairly safe - I'd have no qualms bringing up a kid there. The surrounding suburbs are very mellow.

[turnip1979]

What about sunshine? But seriously ... we moved to TO after SF and NYC - not that happy with the move. There is a startup scene but not as many choices as the cities we came from. The salaries are also quite a bit lower, stuff is expensive and there are generally more regulations to do with it seems.

[jacquesm]

What countries are you from originally?

Plan a holiday to the US, look things over and then make a budget (emigration is far from cheap), save and then decide to back out or bite the bullet. Don't do anything permanent until your visa is in the bag for you, your spouse and your child. Hollywood and anecdotes are not good inputs to a life determining decision like this, consider it a huge project and devote resources accordingly.

Why is Belgium disappointing you?

The US is definitely not paradise but it may give you chances that are hard to replicate elsewhere. At the same time, I know plenty of people that are successful in the EU. It usually boils down to the people, not the place.

[gcp]

Why is Belgium disappointing you?

Well, given that his wife longs for "finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people."

I'm going to guess: high housing prices, population density killing nature & unfriendly people. Given that this is HN, I'd add "government and population actively hostile to entrepreneurship" on top of it.

You should talk to other people who emigrated, though. One of my friends did, and they found for example that they could hardly afford child daycare because that isn't subsidized in the States, unlike Belgium. There are probably multiple such small surprises lurking.

[jacquesm]

When I read that I thought: South of France, Spain, Portugal, Italy. Any one of those would solve the majority of those wishes, and would be a lot easier to get into than the US.

The problem is that no country is perfect. You can't get 'free daycare', 'good weather', 'affordable fresh food', 'beautiful nature close by', 'free healthcare', 'friendly and approachable people', '5 weeks of holiday' and 'free education' all in one serving. (Though I believe strongly that friendly and approachable people can be found anywhere, it's a bit of a reflection on how you are usually.)

I say that as someone that has lived in a lot of different countries. (.nl, .pl, .ca, .ro and a bunch of others besides but too short to consider relevant in this context).

[Morgawr]

>You can't get 'free daycare', 'good weather', 'affordable fresh food', 'beautiful nature close by', 'free healthcare', 'friendly and approachable people', '5 weeks of holiday' and 'free education' all in one serving.

I agree with your general statement but this description actually fits a big chunk of Italy. It's ironic, I don't like my native country (Italy) and I'm an expatriate and yet I can realize how awesome it might sound to people not from it. The description fits everything you're going to find in Italy. However there are huge downsides, mainly the corruption, government, economy, large taxation for small businesses, very backwards tech (especially IT) industry.

If one can get a remote well-paying job, Italy is probably one of the best options to go for that. Downside: the language, Italians are very proud of their language and most of them have a hard time speaking English.

[BSousa]

South of Portugal and Spain fit most if not all of that, except jobs. In Portugal there are some dev jobs in Faro (but then you have either a long commute or live in an apartment in the city and pay is quite low to be a one provider kind of family) and in Spain Malaga does have good dev jobs around (not sure about Java but iOS/Ruby can get a decent salary there) and there are some places around that fit the bill that are within commuting distance to Malaga companies.

For better pay, there is Gibraltar and living in the South side of Spain. Sometimes you have to endure a long border cross, but the pay in Gib compared to cost of living in Spain may be worth it (and there are a few well paid of java/php jobs in Gibraltar in the betting companies)

If you want more info about the area, companies or plan/think moving here, shoot me an email (profile).

[jacquesm]

The good bit for the OP is that he might be able to work remote, and spend local. That's the best of both worlds.

[BSousa]

I agree that would be ideal, but having been through a kind of similar search myself recently, I didn't see many java remote jobs available (a lot of ruby ones), and getting one is hard (unless you are an outstanding well-known candidate, you are competing with the whole world for a remote job, and in most cases, you will get someone from eastern europe or phillipines that is as talented as you, but requiring half of what you require (living in Belgium or event Portugal or Spain).

[danmaz74]

I lived three years in Sardinia and it is almost perfect in those respect, if you don't have to worry about finding a job locally. And it also has very cheap flights with the UK.

[gcp]

I think you mainly missed "good local job market" in the can't have it all list, otherwise I agree that much of southern Europe qualifies.

[danmaz74]

There are many southern EU countries where he would get all those things (sunshine, fresh vegetables, cheap housing, beautiful nature) without having to worry about immigration. I think he could look for a remote job from the UK - should be easy already having connections there - and then move to Southern EU.

[mhurron]

> high housing prices

Yet they want to move to California.

http://www.hsh.com/finance/mortgage/salary-home-buying-25-ci...

I'm in the process of buying a house and am very glad I am not in California.

[larrybolt]

I'm still a student myself, but from the things I've heard and seen about the startup scene here, in Belgium, it's not that big as in the states.

It also seems that education is payed a lot more attention to than some other countries. Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of having a good education, but in the tech-world I cannot believe a certificate/diploma is worth more than visible passion and experience.

[showsover]

I'm from Belgium as well, and in the 3 years I'm working, I've worked for 2 startups, both in Ghent. There are quite a few startups here in this city, and it's not the biggest city in Belgium as well.

My education was a footnote on my CV, a good starter for the talk with recruiters. They generally know you know 'nothing' when you're fresh from school, so they have their expectations set accordingly.

[gcp]

I think your idea of what a "healthy start-up scene" is, is probably lacking quite some perspective. I don't want to write a political essay here, but generally speaking, Belgian law & regulations, infrastructure, politics, language barriers and the size of the country and distribution market are an extremely hostile environment for entrepreneurship, compared to say London or San Francisco.

This doesn't mean some people aren't trying anyway :)

[larrybolt]

This is a very good description, thanks! I reference this quite often lately to people asking about how it's over here.

[gone35]

Sorry if this doesn't sound as much but... do your research. Ex ante it appears you and your wife are under a lot of misapprehensions and, if I may say, grass-is-greener media/cultural European clichés about the US --too many, perhaps, to disabuse in a single "Ask HN" thread.

Like others said below, a good idea would be to come live in the US for, say, a summer or so under a short-term tourist or student visa (eg maybe for a career-related summer course or unpaid internship) and see for yourself.

[seminole]

Yes, well, this is part of research :-) I agree that staying for a while would be ideal, but it's very nearly impossible at this point.

[lingoberry]

Unfortunately you don't just "go and work" in the US, it doesn't work like the EU. Unless you're a hot commodity and you can convince Google et al to pay for your visa ($tens of thousands) and then winning the H-1B visa lottery, you will have a tough time.

[lazyjones]

I faced this question at the age of 29 (late 90's) when I got an interesting offer to work in Florida (I live in Austria).

In the end, I decided against it. At the (2-day) job interview, people who worked there pointed out that the biggest benefit over Europe was the perceived freedom, the feeling that noone would bother them about their private business (this is probably no longer the case / general feeling today). I found the poverty in urban areas most shocking (loitering people, obvious racial inequality).

In the end it boils down to whether having your "dream job" (for me it was game programming) is worth both getting ripped out of your surroundings and coping with lower standards in many areas in the US over Europe (well, depends on whether you live in a poor EU country), as well as other issues like the harsher environment (floods, earthquakes). 50-60 hours was a given in the 90's, perhaps it is no longer the case now that Google/FB set the bar higher for job quality. For me it was better to stay, although nowdays I sometimes ponder moving to Switzerland, Norway or perhaps Australia (for different reasons, none involving career perspectives).

[schwarzie2478]

May I ask what your bad experience in Belgium entailed? I'm curious, being belgian and a programmer... Although IT management here ranks very low in my humble opinion, it's not bad working here in the IT sector ( unless you work for banks and financial institutions, those are jerks :-) )

[kasey_junk]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but just saying California isn't really even enough to narrow things down. Remember that California is about the size of Spain, but in many ways with more geographic, population and economic diversity.

The cost of living, job opportunities, weather, and life style varies dramatically from San Diego, Los Angeles, Bakersfield, Sacremento, and San Francisco.

I'd recommend a trip to see. That said, California is the last place I'd move if I were a tech worker right now. You can get many of the same benefits (except possible access to VC money) in lots of other places. The Research Triangle NC and Austin TX for instance both offer much of what you are asking for at a much more affordable price.

[empressplay]

Emigration is going to be difficult, isn't it? Companies seem to rarely sponsor immigrants unless they're total rockstars or aqui-hires because in-sourcers like TCS can bring "average" IT workers in cheaper.

It looks like the days of Google et. al. recruiting from far-afield are over, unless you're CTO of an early-stage startup someone like Google might buy, or at least have some kick-ass side projects you can point to that will make you irresistibly attractive enough for someone to deal with all of the associated immigration headache, perhaps being better / worse off from a lifestyle perspective is a bit of a moot point?

Sorry to be a downer but... cart before horse, etc. etc.

[yodsanklai]

Novelty and the feeling of doing something different are very good reasons to move.

Salaries will be higher in the US but without a doubt you will lose in term of vacations and free time. Everything you wife mention, you can have in Europe. Food wise, I think you're better off in Europe if you like fresh inexpensive food.

The nature on the west coast is incredible. The national parks there are among the most impressive places I've seen. However, with 2 weeks vacations, you may not have much time to visit them. You can't really go to the grand canyon for a weekend for instance. You'll have more time to go there on vacation while you work in Europe!

[foobarian]

I'm lucky to work for a Boston shop where work/life balance is good relative to my perception of the average American software company, specifically, close to 40 hour work weeks, "death marches" strongly discouraged by upper management because they get how bad they are for turnover, 3 weeks vacation at start, then one more week after every 3 years.

One thing about vacations in US is that no matter how much time one gets on paper, I found the company cultures to look down on taking time off. It's almost like people are ashamed to take their vacation time.

[kovrik]

I'm a 25yo Java developer from Russia. My gf and I don't like (almost hate) our country and we want out.

We choose between USA, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

I'm not a well-known software engineer, not an outstanding genius (yes, I'm not very confident about my skills) - that is why it seems very difficult for me to get a job outside Russia.

But I love programming, I try to learn something new every day, improve my skills and knowledge. And I hope we will get out someday (hope dies last :) ).

I wish you good luck - don't worry, everything would be alright!

[runewell]

We would love to have you in the USA. The other countries you listed are fantastic places to live but if your passion is in programming then the USA is an excellent place to be. There are plenty of immigrant success stories here. Look at recent news, Jan Koum moved here from Ukraine, created a mobile application, and is now worth over $6,000,000,000 thanks to the Facebook acquisition!

[kovrik]

Thank you! But where should I start from?

[BugBrother]

I doubt that life quality is better in USA. But the money is better -- and your local social environment is what decides if you like living somewhere, anyway. (Tell me if you like it. :-) )

A suggested plan, with small steps:

Try the waters with Scandinavia/EU? If you travel by Finland from St Petersburg, you can get an EU VISA, right? Then you can do interviews etc in place. But maybe not for Britain? I think it is easier to move to the EU if a company wants to hire you, than getting a Green Card (disclaimer: I only really know about Sweden and Finland for non-EU migrants). If you don't like it, try USA.

(I would offer you to stay at my place and look for jobs, but I'm not in the North right now.)

[BugBrother]

In Scandinavia, most immigrants from Netherlands and Germany I met are the kind of people which spend all free time in a forest or in a canoe on a lake. If nature is important for you, select area carefully in some countries.

Also, if you are from south Russia, be aware of the winter dark in Norway.

Note that Scandinavians are shy, it is a culture historically from small villages, it takes years to get local friends. Finland has most Russian expatriates, afaik.

[kovrik]

Well, I love nature, but I am young and I like life in a big city too :)

Currently I live in Saint-Petersburg (most european city in Russia) - it is rather cold here in winters, so low temperatures is not a problem.

Also, I'm shy too.

[BugBrother]

StP. As far as I know... Beautiful? Cultured, with lots of good art/music education? Like half London, but with nature quite close? You won't get similar big city life anyplace in Scandinavia. Barcelona, or something? [Disclaimer: Two short visits to St P, quite long ago.]

I don't really know any "typical" Russians -- most everyone I ever talked to were intellectual, nerd or artistic [Edit: and none of them drank more than me, either :-)] -- but I believe you might find people in other places be less cool and interesting.

But sure, it might be good to get out before the borders are closed again. Russian politicians makes the Swedish cynical hypocritical ones look like angels; at least they aren't integrated with organized crime (afaik). :-(

And good luck. Move when you are young and see other places.

[kovrik]

Well, I love StP, there are a lot of awesome people here and so on.

But political situation in Russia bothers me (I don't like Putin and our corrupted criminal government. I don't like current situation in Ukraine. I don't like extremely high level of corruption and so on). Stupid laws being adopted every day. Bad standard of living, a lot of bureaucracy...

If you don't have a lot of money and powerful friends - it is almost impossible to live here. If you want good medicine help - you must give bribes etc.

I understand that life in other countries is not a paradise. There are a lot of problems too. But I think that I can always come back to Russia and continue living as I am living now. And if I don't give a try - I won't know for sure.

[BugBrother]

That is good, many locals around here don't realize that there are lots of advantages/disadvantages with everything.

But yes, afaik -- if you live in a corrupt place, it is probably best to get out.

[__xtrimsky]

26 yo that used to live in California, but lives in NY now.

You don't get sunshine everywhere in California.

I personally hated the weather in San Francisco, but a bit to the south (Mountain View) is already much nicer.

Now I'll go through your requirements:

40h workweek: Yes easy to find

5 weeks of holiday a year: That is almost impossible to find in my experience, except if you are willing to get 3 weeks out of your pocket. (meaning you are actually deducting your pay)

free/cheap health insurance: Find a company with health insurance, and then you should be able to have one for your family, and only pay an extra of 200 to 600$ / month (yes that is cheap in the US)

free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter: that's not possible, you will have to pay for college. I think you can get one cheaper if you live more than 6 months in that state, and then send your daughter to a state college. Here is an example of a university near me (starts at 4000$ / year):

http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/tuition-and-fee-rat...

[__xtrimsky]

PS: there is a way to get your college paid for, and that is scholarships, if your child is extremely good in school, he/she can get any college paid for. But you can't count on it as it is something very hard to do.

But my cousin got 8+ years of medical schools paid for, and also her rent was paid for.

[eshvk]

I moved to America six years ago. I have lived in California, Texas and now live in New York.

> My wife keeps saying we should move to US, perhaps California. She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people

Sure, if you lived in Nor Cal, somewhere close to Marin or in the East Bay, you could probably get that. It is kind of puzzling to me that you would go all the way to America for this though. Wouldn't you prefer to live in the EU closer to a community ?

> 40h workweek 5 weeks of holiday a year free/cheap health insurance free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter.

You are not going to get a 40 hour work week in America. It might be close to 60 hours. At least 50. Again, depends on the place. If you work for a big company like Google, things will be reasonably. Early stage startup. Miserable. Vacation is 2 weeks - 4 weeks. Health insurance has always been paid for me by my employer. Schools, I can't comment. I don't have offspring.

Someone mentioned other regions. Let me give you a quick run through considering that long term, America is my home but I don't know whether I want to live in a city.

Austin, Texas. Too small, too hot. Still too Texan.

New York. I love NYC. But it is not what your wife would want. It is a Megapolis.

Colorado. I fucking love Colorado. Boulder is amazing, it is a great college town with all those beautiful girls. Great opportunities for hiking. It has a great and upcoming tech scene. Honestly, if I were ever to buy a summer home or move elsewhere in the U.S., it would be Colorado.

[awjr]

I'm going to add something from the experience of being the kid that was dragged around Germany and the USA from the age of 3 to the age of 12 moving every 2 years.

Positives: - I was put into the german school system learning german almost like a 'native' and I still have it. (Massive positive) - Luckily I had 2 brothers. We'd move somewhere new, clump up as a gang, then slowly get to know people and get our own set of friends. - I still find it easy to make friends.

Negatives: - Become good friends with somebody, move on. - Making new friends all the time. - I found my memories of Germany 3-10 better than the USA (10-12) but in Germany we were thrown on to our bikes and rode off into the countryside for the day (we lived in villages). In the USA we were driven everywhere although we did have a pool (Florida). - When we finally came back to the UK I found it slightly odd. Culturally I'd missed out on a lot.

Schools were much of a muchness. Of note we were in public school and then quickly moved to private school in the USA (this was 1980).

[TheSmoke]

Some random thoughts:

- The most important thing for me: EU states are social states and US is not.

- You are not going to get a free health insurance or cheap but quality education for your daughter like in Europe. (Not saying she won't get quality education, just saying it won't be cheap as we are used to in Europe.)

- US is not a developer's paradise but it's a paradise of possibilities and opportunities.

- http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/CA/house,condo,mobile,l... In that link there is a list of houses with a garden that you can buy to give you the idea. For the places that you would think you could afford, there is a possibility of living without a job. (Find remote work and it all works out?) But I think they are better houses than houses in most of the Europe.

- You can think of Austin, Boston or Chicago instead of California cities.

- Wait, there's another possibility: You can move to Berlin, Vienna, Istanbul, Mugla, Izmir or Aydin. You'd work remotely most of the time except for Istanbul, Berlin and Vienna.

- Food in Europe is a lot better than in the US and by food I mean real food, not the cereals, cookies or things they eat thinking they're having breakfast. :) (At least in SF)

- I tend to think that startups are not for people that are married and with children. They are demanding and consuming. Unless it's your own because only then it'd be worth to your efforts and time. We all know that.

Wish you all the luck for whatever you decide and let me tell you one more thing. You should absolutely be grateful for the wife of yours. Mine is not moving a centimetre..

[h1karu]

The cost of living in the tech-scene areas are outrageous and skyrocketing, those are the facts. The sun-shine California lifestyle can be quite nice you'll need to be prepared to pay out the wazoo. Don't believe it ? Prove me wrong, start looking at the Bay Area rental market.

[runewell]

We would love to have you and your family. The USA is so large and diverse that practically any living scenario is possible. If you want to live near nature with sunshine, fresh affordable food, and a home with a garden then I would suggest checking out more rural parts of northern California. There are many employers that will allow you to work onsite part-time (one day a week, month, or quarter) and the rest of your time at home, assuming your output is acceptable and you are available during working hours. Special arrangements such as this are more difficult in the beginning but are very easy to setup if you have proven yourself to be a productive programmer.

I would suggest checking out areas such as Redding, CA. If you make over $100k a year you could get yourself setup with a nice place such as the link below.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/reb/4450341909.html

More properties in that area: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/rea?query=acre&sale_...

Note: Life can be wonderful in the USA but our healthcare and education system need work. Healthcare is fantastic if you get good insurance, but that will cost you each month. Being a programmer, it is likely your employer will provide health insurance. Our Universities are some of the best in the world (ex. MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Carnegie Mellon, etc), but our elementary and high school education system is inefficient so you may want to consider one of the many private school options in your area. This too will be costly. Basically expect to pay 10-15% of your salary towards making up for our deficiencies in these areas. Work/life balance is entirely possible here although many European countries structure their national policies around promoting such ideas while the USA pretty much leaves it up to the individual to organize their life in the way they see fit. This is why we have so many people living on the extremes, from super-star entrepreneurs to homeless individuals and everyone else in-between.

[sologoub]

California is a double-edged sword. I've lived here for over 15 years and it's definitely the place I intend on staying for quite a while.

If you plan on being near either Bay Area or the greater Los Angeles area, you have to be ready for the housing prices. A good, safe area with good schools will cost you. A short commute on top of that will cost you double.

That said, if you do your research, you can find very solid public schools (school districts) and University is doable, unless you go private.

As far as neighbors, it's a mixed bag - there are plenty of great people and there also many fake, greedy, etc. Just like any big city. Culturally, Americans seem to be more predisposed to welcoming people than not.

Back to the finances, with the costs of housing, it's not likely that you will be able to be the sole breadwinner. I've been trying to solve this puzzle for a while, but on a single income things just don't pencil...

Now the upside - California lifestyle is something else. You have all 4 seasons at your disposal with only a drive or a short flight year round. This opens up a lot of possibilities for enjoying nature/sports. If you are more into just quiet enjoyment, the state offers magnificent areas like Big Sur, that are also surrounded by awesome hotels, camping grounds and wine country. California wine is great and very inexpensive.

You also have the beach (really cold water though) and great weather most days out of the year.

Downside of Los Angeles is traffic and lack of public transit. In SF, you trade public transit for huge cost of living increase.

Never having lived in Belgium, I can't compare. My only experience has been a very short (6 months) stint in the UK and Moscow. I would not come back to either voluntarily after California.

If you are not afraid of a little rain, I would strongly recommend you consider Seattle - reasonable weather (I like rain) and not too much cold, great nature and friendly people (by my standards of visiting and working with a few great folks), no state income tax (CA works out to an extra 10% for me), a lot lower cost of living with similar level of education offered by the local school system.

[wellboy]

Australia dude, best country ever. Salary as high as in California. It has all the good things that the U.S. has, without the bad things.

[adriaanm]

Do not underestimate the cost (time & $$$) of immigrating and the in(s)anity of US immigration law. Winning the H1b lottery is probably the easiest way. Getting a green card requires a pretty dedicated sponsor willing to spend $5-10K, not to mention the >1 year wait (this is assuming best case: EU citizen with "US equivalent" of a Masters).

[seminole]

Sorry about the formatting.

* 40h workweek

* 5 weeks of holiday a year

* free/cheap health insurance

* free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter.

[lbotos]

Out of the 4 things listed here, in the US the only one that's "normal" is a 40h workweek.

5 weeks of vacation is a lot unless you are really senior or pulled a lot of strings. 2weeks is the average "base" here.

Solid health insurance is usually expensive.

Public schools are "free" but you are going to have to pay for college. I don't know of any completely free colleges anywhere in the country. (Not saying there aren't any, but I've never heard anyone talk about a good one.)

[tomp]

He can always send the daughter (and any other kids) back to Europe for college, it's (mostly) free (for citizens) here.

[seminole]

That was the cunning plan :-)

[mpcadosch]

Go to the US for an extended vacation (month or so), interview with as many companies as you can, and find one that will sponsor an H1-B visa. It'll be hard, but it's worth it.

[levosmetalo]

And then wait 5 or more years until your wife is allowed to work there legally, pay obscene amounts of money for child daycare and schools, all while waiting for a green card.

[gcp]

This matches the experience of the people I know that emigrated :-/

[ColinWright]

Generally you have up to 2 hours to edit your post, which is reasonable if you also add a line saying you've done so for formatting purposes.

[gte525u]

Most US companies it's 2-3 weeks of vacation and 10 days a year of public holidays.

[gcp]

It's not really that far off from Belgium (20 + 10), but I think your US numbers do assume a competitive job market like programming.

His wife might not be so lucky.

[deodorel]

You look for sunshine, sea, jobs and an european location? Have you considered Sophia Antipolis, on the French cote d'Azur? I live and work there and it's quite nice, and you'll surly find a lot of java jobs.

[doxydexydroxide]

A 3rd Generation US born Citizen turns his back on the USA:living the American dream in Vienna, Austria:

Lived in Silicon Valley for 20 years founding 4 companies in the process. I am an honest and decent person who was raped each and every time by my co-founders/investors. Only the soulless/ruthless succeed in Silicon Valley. SILICON VALLEY IS A TRAP! Everything is dried out and dead, including the people. Everything is about money, and everybody including your employer has their hands in your wallet. Child care is hideous. People are shallow and self centered. Homeless camps are everywhere, and there is no empathy/compassion for these older "former heroes of high tech" fucked over by the Vulture Crapitalists masters. Work weeks of 80 hours are the norm. Your company owns your soul. Schools are 3rd world. You have no life. Three hours sitting in traffic to get to the beach. No Culture. East Palo Alto is being bought up and the people tossed out on the street. Crime rate is now "off the scale" in both Menlo Park and Palo Alto (Facebook paid to construct and operate a Menlo Park Police Station just to protect its corporate HQ campus).

Lived in Boulder Colorado for 3 years. Closest thing one can find to living in Europe in North America. Fell in love with mountain climbing. Primary reason I chose to move my wife and 3 young children to Vienna Austria 11 years ago (easy access to the Alps).

I am giving up my US Citizenship this year to become an Austrian. I was back visiting my family in San Jose last year and could not believe how bad the quality of life in the US had sunk to.

Vienna Austria:Everything that the US was while I was growing up in the 1970s. Absolute heaven on earth! Those days are over in the USA. Amazing 5 weeks of vacation time. Founded my own GmbH 7 years ago. Government here is more involved with business: Austria has a high hurdle to start a business. 35,000 euros in startup capital, and avg 7 months approval time. This is actually a good thing as it eliminates much of the fraud in US where anybody can become a founder in 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Virtually no crime. Vienna is the best city in the world for 5 years in a row.

WELCOME TO THE USA: NOW BEND OVER:You have no credit history so be prepared to pay dearly for everything! Credit Card: 30% interest rate. Apartment: 6 months rent as deposit. Car loan: 40 percent. Power/Gas 600 dollar deposit.

Americans are impossible to develop deep long term and meaningful relationships with. They sure are polite, but all relationships are shallow. Everyone is waiting for you to fuck them over, so no one trusts anymore.

Austrians are cautious at the beginning, but after a time they are the most trusting people I have ever met. I have never had as many good neighbors and made true friends as I have in Austria.

Austrian education system is far superior to the USA! They invest in their peoples future with free higher education and apprentice training programs with the result of the lowest unemployment rate in the world.

Austrians, and most Europeans are "social" in "people before profit". As a lifelong capitalist pig, I had no idea that "American Capitalism" is pure theft. Socialists are not communists. Republicanism (US Representative form of government) is not Democracy, and the wealthy minority are protected at the expense of the majority. The Republican form of world government is 4 Oligarchs (US, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA) fighting over a lamb (the people).

George Carlin was right! George Carlin ~ The American Dream You have to be asleep to believe it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Advice:Stay in Europe! You do not appreciate how good you have it! Do not be suckered into the fraud known as the American dream of getting rich, or of ever owning your own home (bought and paid for).

[zequel]

Wow, that's one heck of an anti-American diatribe! Maybe SV is like that (I can't say), but "Americans are impossible to develop deep long term and meaningful relationships with" is a bit of an overstatement, no? You're talking about 300M people! I'm sorry you had a bad experience but I don't think you can make accurate statements like that about America based on SV.

[pajju]

Valuable points. Appreciated!

[lukasm]

Remote work from Spain?

[sspross]

Come to Switzerland! You'll love it and as an enterprise java dev you'll find a job. Maybe I can help you here in Zürich, silvan.spross[at]gmail.com

[kghose]

The only way to figure out if you like it is to try it out. Unless this was a bash US starter, in which case, carry on.

[manolus]

Go live in Brazil!

[stefantalpalaru]

> we'll finally have some sunshine

You will and you'll also have the chance to discover the difference between excess and moderation.

> lots of affordable fresh food

The food is either affordable or good.

> live in a house with garden

More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house.

> beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends

Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond.

> friendly and approachable people

Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed.

[pionar]

Wow, so negative.

> Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed.

This is not my experience at all. Maybe in Cali (I've only visited), but the rest of the US is not as cynical or distrustful as you make it out to be.

> Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond.

The definition of close enough for a weekend camping trip for me would probably be 200-300 miles. Within that range, no matter where you are in the US, you'll find nice areas for this purpose.

> The food is either affordable or good.

In restaurants, yes. If you cook your own food, no. There are lots of farmers' markets, local grocery stores, etc., that are no more expensive than buying processed food.

> More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house.

Only in suburbia. If you're out in the country, or in a city, there are (usually) no HOAs and only local zoning laws prevent what you can and can't do. The only requirement (usually) is to keep your grass trimmed to a reasonable height. I agree though, that HOAs are a bad idea and promote cookie-cutter neighborhoods.

[eshvk]

> This is not my experience at all. Maybe in Cali (I've only visited), but the rest of the US is not as cynical or distrustful as you make it out to be.

Likewise. I mean there are fearful, greedy and distrustful people everywhere. People are civil to you in America. You will eventually make friends if people want to be friends with you. It is a two-way street.

[seminole]

Thanks for the comment. Perhaps a tad negative, but useful when pondering a move based on nothing more than 'vision that was planted in my head'.

[chrismcb]

While LA itself is a desert, there are mountains in the area, within a few hours drive. A few hours drive should qualify as close. If you have a house large enough for a front lawn, you can also have a back yard where you can typically maintain a small garden.

[comrade1]

For the sake of your child you should probably stay in Europe. The education system in the u.s. is terrible. 100% of my European friend couples have moved back to Europe as soon as they've gotten pregnant or gave birth in order to provide a better education for their children.

[davidw]

100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on. My wife would find it tough to leave Italy for this reason, for instance. Also, as a parent, I think you want to feel somewhere that feels like 'home' - or maybe that's just me. Without kids, I would feel pretty comfortable in a lot of places, but now that we have them, I think I would be less comfortable going somewhere completely new.

The educational system isn't that bad in the US if you're in the right place. It varies a lot from state to state and between towns or even areas in a town.

[comrade1]

So I'm only talking about 3 couples. Education was one of the main factors for all 3. One of the couples didn't even move close to relatives - they moved to Switzerland even though one parent is Finnish and the other Spanish. They still may move to Finland but not to be by relatives but instead to be in the country with the best education system in the world - for now Switzerland is 'good enough'.

Their complaints about the u.s. - poor quality teachers, poor funding even in wealthy areas, and a generally poor culture/attitude toward learning. Their complaint/worry about Europe is making sure that their child gets into the University track of education which isn't guaranteed here.

[gcp]

100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on.

We're both arguing without hard data here, but I'll just give an outright "nope" to the above.

[davidw]

These rankings are a bit dubious, but in this one, for instance, the US does not do great, but does do better than Belgium, where the poster wants to move away from:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075

I want my own kids to have a good education, and would feel comfortable moving back to the US from that point of view. My biggest doubt from that point of view is that I want them to be bilingual in Italian and English, and there is no Italian language education in the US, so it'd be up to my wife and I.

[gcp]

I was arguing against the "grandparents and language" argument, not the general education argument. It's easy to argue against because I'm a counterexample myself. (...and my Italian still sucks after 30 years)

[petervandijck]

I can second this, I left the US because my kids started going to first grade and I finally realized that all the stuff you read about is all true. It was horrid.

And this was considered a top school in one of the most expensive neighbourhoods around.

[hellbreakslose]

You didn't mention the visa thing at all.

You said you are EU citizens. It's ok for you moving around EU but moving to the US is going to create immigration problems for you.

One of you will need to get sponsored for a long-term working visa not the temporary one. Then still I think according to US laws your Wife won't be able to work until you get a Green Card. I heard that they are trying to change that law but still.

Sorry to break it down to you like that, you can still try and make it, but its not an easy thing to move to the States especially having a family with you.

I'd suggest you apply to 20 companies+ and try schedule them all within a week. So you and your family can go there for a week do your interviews and see if you can get someone to sponsor you.

It's not like you said I am just going to move there... If you say that to the officers in the airport asking you the reason for your visit they are definitely not going to let you in.