[joaren]

Exactly. What's going on is that the feminists of MVC are looking at the extremes: extreme abuse, or extreme success. What they don't care about is that this is an industry where 40 hour work weeks are a luxury, and the average neckbeard sysadmin is despised by HR even as he fixes their boxes for the n'th time.

As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. But since the bottom half of men are invisible, everyone focuses on the 'poor' victimized women instead.

Roy Baumeister's "Is There Anything Good About Men?" explains this well, but they'd never read it because it's "MRA".

[kmf]

> As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse.

Can you honestly write that and actually believe it? Even better, can you give some examples to justify it? That's a pretty big claim, and one that, at face value, seems pretty unlikely.

[exo762]

Here is the list (US only).

* Domestic violence (men can't be the victim in eyes of public and law).

* Divorces (70% initiated by women, child support calculated basing on one month of his highest income ever, women get the children).

* Body integrity (circumcision anyone?)

* Sexist sentencing (men get on average twice as high number of years in jail for the same crimes)

* Education (man are lagging behind women in both primary, secondary and college degrees)

* Work-place related injuries and deaths (mostly men, all of the time).

Women in US? Yeah, often meet with prejudice when it comes to evaluation of their abilities as employees and professionals. Most other often repeated problems are BS and are not supported by statistics.

[arbutus]

You should probably read this article: http://jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit-that-hating-men-is-a-t...

Specifically, this part from the bottom of the article:

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their "traditional" marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate "nice guys." The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don't is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it's unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.

Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.

[xamebax]

Some concrete evidence: http://www.policymic.com/articles/88277/23-ways-feminism-has...

[exo762]

Ok, this article needs some dismantling. Huge amount of straight propaganda.

1. Or it was other way around. Women in workforce => Feminism.

3. And installed laws such as VOWA, installed Diluth Model etc etc.

5,6. More half-truths and lies. The only contraceptive that gives men power to control their reproduction is condom, which was invented long before Feminism. Pill and other forms of contraception are empowering ONLY women. "Men get abortions too" is beyond manipulation. Idea that by helping small group of LGBTQ folk Feminism is saving ALL the males is repeated few more times in this article. Ridiculous.

7. Beautiful manipulation. Indeed, this change of definition allowed persecution in cases where male is a victim. Still, it is not possible to persecute "envelopment" as rape.

10-17. Feminism also cured AIDS, send humans to the Moon and granted eternal salvation in afterlife.

18. Clearly, before Feminism women never left kitchen. /s

20. Imagine that? A Movie! Damn, Feminism is literally anti Hitler!

21. Hey, I fought against Putin's second, third and fourth term. And I failed miserably, just as Feminism in this particular case.

21. "Feminism teaches us that nothing is objective, not even science." Enough said.

Men does not need Feminism, they need their own movement. Otherwise we get such gems as this one: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Allies

[mreiland]

And here I thought Rosa Parks was a racial issue, not a gender one.

While I agree that feminism has had some positive effects, I take issue with feminism taking credit for "anything a woman has done ... ever".

Did feminism invent programming and find the first bug ever?Or was that Ada Lovelace, because I'm starting to be unsure...

[cheez]

I will forever remember this dear lady when I hear any of this:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

[joaren]

Oh good, you replied to factual statistics with a bunch of feel good nonsense from Jezebel, which we all know is a respected journal in the social sciences.

[exo762]

This article deserves a comic which goes like that:

a) a man is shown suffering from some injustice that targets only men

b) his attempts to alleviate the issue via normal means meet a cold denial of society

c) a Feminist appears that points out "this is Patriarchy!"

d) Nothing changes; Feminist smugly walks away. He saved the day once again!

[joaren]

Absolutely. Go look at the Middle East, visit Tehran. See how many 80 year old male taxi drivers there are. The men are obliged to support to women into old age, who are legally entitled to privileges. See how many 80 year old women do the same.

Of course this gets rewritten into a "woman are victims" narrative where they aren't allowed to leave the house, even though few Iranian women care to change this situation.

Women have in group bias, the Women are Wonderful effect exists, and the bottom half of the men are invisible.

If you really want to understand this as a man, start to engage in feminist discussions with a female nickname. All of a sudden, you can be hyperbolic, hypersensitive and hysterical, and people will somehow find a way to excuse such behaviour. Post the exact same comment as a man, and you will not only be dismissed, but often seen as a credible threat.

[Fomite]

I can't even read it with a straight face.

[joaren]

And it's exactly this sort of visceral reaction that will keep the "women are victims" meme going long after we're all dead. It's evolutionarily beneficial, after all, we are descended from twice as many women as men. You don't think that happened purely by coincidence or as a "societal construct" did you?

[Fomite]

It's not a visceral reaction. Those tend to be far less polite.

It's a reaction to the idea that men having their own struggles must, invariably, be parsed as a zero-sum game against women, and the toxic idea that for men to benefit, somehow women must lose.