[jqm]

By "peaceful" I don't think you mean "resolution favoring the western agenda"?

I am all in favor of peace.

We in the west can't necessarily control what Russia does. But we can (or should be able to) control what we do. I certainly don't think sending senators and state department officials to meet with coup leaders in the day before the coup and the constant stream of hostile talk helps anything.

Not supporting Russia annexing Ukraine. Just so no one gets the wrong idea.

[TeMPOraL]

That's why I call this "stupid political bickering". It's not about Ukraine, it's about superpowers projecting their influence.

Also, I might be biased, because I live not that far from the Ukrainian border and I would feel much safer if the US stayed away from this.

Edited to add:

I'm also less concerned about US not getting military launches and more about the future of the ISS. The Space Station is more than just a research post in a cold place; it's a monument, a symbol, of a bright future, of a peaceful progress of whole mankind. Losing ISS wouldn't be just a bad day for science, it would impact many people's hopes and dreams.

[makomk]

If I'm not entirely mistaken, the "coup leaders" in Ukrane were in fact the duly elected government of Ukrane, and it was exactly as much a "coup" as Congress kicking out the US President would be.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not being hyperbolic here, the "coup" in question literally consisted of the elected representatives of the Ukranian people kicking out the president, who I think even belonged to the same party as a number of the ringleaders.

Edit 2: yep, "The Ukrainian parliament, which decisively abandoned Yanukovich after loyalists defected, declared on Saturday the president constitutionally unable to carry out his duties and set an early election for May 25."[1] His own former political allies voted to give him the boot.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-parliam...

[geoka9]

> the "coup" in question literally consisted of the elected representatives of the Ukranian people kicking out the president

In fact, the president _illegally_ fled the country (on a Russian navy ship) leaving the parliament no choice but to appoint an acting president until the elections (which will be on May 25).

[jqm]

You may wish to look into number of votes required to remove the existing president of Ukraine.

And the number of people present voting.

[jqm]

and why would the president "illegally" remove himself from the country?

I suppose during peaceful democratic transitions of power this is a bit unusual to say the least. But ya... coup.

[geoka9]

> and why would the president "illegally" remove himself from the country?

That is the question you would have to ask him. AFAIK, not a single official from his government or staff or party has been arrested or hurt since the president fled. As I said, he could return to the country, but he chose not to.

[jqm]

baloney.

They had at least one guy (Bashkalenko) handcuffed on stage during the protests. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqveUVU70g

But I really don't want to argue about it anymore. I realize the people of Ukraine had legitimate grievances. I don't think Russia should own Ukraine. I don't think the CIA or anyone else instigated the coup. I just don't think Washington should have had the state department in the middle of it. And I think they should tone down the hostile talk.

[makomk]

It's not clear he can; he's in Russia, and Russia don't seem to have any more interest in him returning to Ukraine or to power than the Ukrainian government.

[geoka9]

The president illegally removed himself from the country, rendering the government inoperable - no bill could be signed into law by him "in absentia". He could return to the country but he chose not to. Calling for new elections and appointing an acting president until the time was the only sensible thing the parliament could do in such conditions.

[jqm]

"with large chunks of it being (or threatening to be) annexed by Russia in the chaos."

I would consider that an allusion to a desired outcome.

But agreed with the poster above who mentions political bickering. It won't get anyone anywhere. Besides, I've made my view known, I think it is just good sense on the part of the west to seek peace rather than hostility, I don't think not being unreasonably hostile in rhetoric and deed is capitulation and I don't have anything else to say.

[Veratyr]

(Kinda) backing you up here, Crimea actually _wanted_ to be a part of Russia: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrat...

The area has been culturally Russian for a very long time. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

[ryanhuff]

Other than hoping for a peaceful resution, I don't think he eluded to favoring any particular outcome.

[us0r]

coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government"

Would be cool if that actually happened. The President signed a deal with the opposition then left the country. His parliament then voted to impeach him. How is that a coup?

[jqm]

sudden? check.

violence? check.

illegal? look at the number required vs those who voted to remove from office.

I'm not saying the guy wasn't corrupt. But, look at some of those who are running the show now. They aren't a whole lot better. Avakov, the cheerleader for immediate violent action against the eastern insurgants for instance.

[us0r]

They had 328 votes and needed 337. However it is a bit of a grey area as the constitution doesn't really cover the President abandoning his Country.

This all began in October I believe. Is 4 months sudden? All of the violence was provoked from the government (him). The opposition definitely took advantage of it and are not entirely innocent in all of this. Corruption has always been a problem in Ukraine will be for the foreseeable future. This guy took it to another level.

[jqm]

the statement "all of the violence was provoked from the government (him)" is not necessarily true at all....

just to get that out there.

[ryanhuff]

@korzun, Suspicious? Far from it. It's par for the course.

[geoka9]

Lest this thread gets hijacked with unnecessary "political bickering", I suggest we avoid using words like "coup" here.

[korzun]

Finally somebody who gets it.

For everybody else, Google Georgian conflict and compare it to what's going on in Ukraine.

Hint: US tried to back Georgian military in a proxy attack and got shut down.

If you don't think it's a bis suspicious for US to be so actively involved in this I have a bridge to sell you.

[happyscrappy]

Or maybe Ukranians are tired of being Putin's hand puppet. They have to be looking at Poland and hoping.

[TeMPOraL]

Poland is looking back and hoping the US stays out of this and the whole thing de-escalates. We don't want to die, you know. And that's what usually happens when a war breaks out.

(yes, we're getting increasingly scared here)