[outworlder]

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need:

- Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source.

- Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable for that (hydrogen is quite difficult to store) and no matter if liquid or gas, the tanks need to be much bigger than a comparable gasoline tank (by energy).

- Actually using the hydrogen. You are using fuel cells to generate electricity, which will power electric engines. Why not skip the middle man? You are using a much more complicated battery, really.

And that just to make the 'charging' faster? How long would it take to cover a country the size of the US with hydrogen stations? I'd put all that infrastructure money on battery research.

This is just Toyota giving up on EVs completely. They just don't want to say it outright. Green companies and all that.

[the_real_bto]

I think you are a bit harsh on Toyota here. I can't resist playing devil's advocate. Some googling turned up Toyota has fleets of fuel cell vehicles already [1], this includes some buses. [2] Seen any battery powered buses lately?

2. Batteries suck. They are heavy and don't hold much energy. Advancements seem to come very slowly despite the fact that everyone wants them to be better!

3. Complexity isn't always bad. Hybrids are much more complex than a traditional drivetrain, yet they manage to deliver improvements in fuel economy.

/devil's advocate off

I do love Tesla, and wish them all the success in the world. Their cars are really heavy though, that is a pretty serious drawback to overcome.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_bus

[greglindahl]

There are a couple of vendors of battery-powered buses. One is a Kleiner Perkins backed startup (http://proterra.com/) that sells buses and overhead fast-charging stations.

BTW the Model S is of a similar weight to other large sedans -- BMW 7-series cars weigh between 4,310 and 5,100 pounds.

[cam_l]

Speaking of 7 series.. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

[fleitz]

Umm... batteries are also like... batteries... how surprising... and like hydrogen are chemical forms of energy storage.

As for how long, probably about 6-24 months... it's actually more a question of capital... if you have the capital i can't imagine it's that difficult to scale up the building of hydrogen storage tanks.

Yes, charging faster is important to people... aren't we having a whole net neutrality debate because being able to download a 2 hr movie in 2 hrs and 30 minutes is no where near as good as being able to download a 2 hr movie in 1h 50m.

I'm pretty sure if you could fly some hydrogen from Berlin to New York in the 20s we can figure out how to make bags for hydrogen. (Yes, some may leak... but who cares, it's not like it doesn't just float away when it gets to the top of the atmosphere...?)

[wcfields]

I was flipping through the channels last night an NHK World had a special dedicated to showing off Hydrogen Fuel Cells. They had mocked up a small town, had a fleet of vehicles/forklifts, and had a lot of "label to camera" shots for Toshiba.

It all looked nice and tidy, but effectively they had to duplicate the natural gas infrastructure and then have /several/* fuel-cell objects behind houses that were about the size of a large refrigerator.

* If I remember right, one was merely to remove the odoring agent for leak detection.

[sliverstorm]

What about range? Hydrogen might be less energy dense than gasoline, but what about compared to batteries?

Range is the #1 crippling factor for EVs to most people I talk to.

[outworlder]

Range is a valid concern, but hydrogen has poor energy density per volume (if compressed).

If you want compact hydrogen, hydrocarbons are your best bet.

[drited]

Hydrogen is better than batteries in this respect though, so when comparing zero emission options it still appears to be a good bet for Toyota, if it can be implemented on a large scale.

[dublinben]

Most hydrogen vehicles (of which there aren't really any you can buy) have the same 200-250 mile range of a Model S.