[eeperson]

These arguments don't make sense to me.

I'm not sure why it matters that different distros put Tomcat in different locations. Embedding Jetty just means that now you have to restart every time. You could just do the same thing with standalone Tomcat instance. The only reason you are running out PermGen space on the redeploys is because your application is not cleaning up its threads on shutdown.

Why is it difficult to do any of those development things without having the server embedded in your application? Pretty much every Java build tool (Maven, SBT, Gradle, Lein) makes those things easy to do without specifying an XML file for your server. Also, they will frequently let you reload your application, which is faster.

[lmm]

> Embedding Jetty just means that now you have to restart every time. You could just do the same thing with standalone Tomcat instance.

So now either I need to figure out how to hook my deployment script into the host system's init scripts, or I need to package tomcat as part of my app (and worry about its shared library linkage). With embedded, my app is just a program, not at all integrated with the host system; it runs like a program and stops like a program.

> Why is it difficult to do any of those development things without having the server embedded in your application?

Because the tool needs support for the server and often it has to be done in a server-specific way. How does one use JProfiler on an app deployed in Tomcat? One edits one of the internal Tomcat xml files. How does one use JProfiler on an app that embeds Jetty? One runs it with the same command line arguments one uses for running any other app with JProfiler. And it's like that for every tool - the way to do it with Tomcat is slightly different, the way to do it with an embedded server is standard.

> Pretty much every Java build tool (Maven, SBT, Gradle, Lein) makes those things easy to do without specifying an XML file for your server.

If you're building a war you need a web.xml (or I'm seeing some speculation it can be done with annotations? Either way, much less clear than just making a servlet in code).

> Also, they will frequently let you reload your application, which is faster.

Not in a way that matters. If you're just doing day-to-day dev then IDE hot code replace is faster still. If you want to be sure you've cleaned out all traces of the old version and are definitely running your latest code then reload isn't reliable enough.

[eeperson]

Why does standalone Tomcat need any more integration with the system than an app with embedded Tomcat? They are both Java applications.

Tool support is not server specific. In both cases you set the appropriate VM arguments. What XML file would you have to edit?

Yes, hot code replacement is faster (although it comes with other tradeoffs). Why can't you do that with standalone Tomcat? What is unreliable about reloading? You can leak PermGen space if you don't finalize your threads properly, but why wouldn't you be running the latest code?

You're right about the web.xml file. I had forgotten about that. I can see why you might prefer to write that in Java code rather than XML.

[lmm]

> Why does standalone Tomcat need any more integration with the system than an app with embedded Tomcat? They are both Java applications.

With an embedded Jetty my app can just be a jar or set of jars. Tomcat has a directory structure and ships as a binary rather than a jar so I'd need to unpack it and worry about it being linked correctly for the target system.

> Tool support is not server specific. In both cases you set the appropriate VM arguments. What XML file would you have to edit?

I forget the name - catalina.xml or something? You can't just run ./tomcat -agent:myagent.jar. because it won't pass the arguments through to the JVM, unless that's changed.

[eeperson]

Tomcat is just a Java application. Its install is just a bunch of jar files with some shell scripts to simplify running them. If you look at an install you see that it is just running the Java class ' org.apache.catalina.startup.Bootstrap'. I'm not sure what linking you are worrying about.

For setting JVM arguments, I think you are thinking of 'setenv.sh' or 'setenv.bat'. These are shell scripts where you can set environment variables used when running Tomcat. This includes the standard 'JAVA_OPTS' to set VM arguments.