I cannot figure out any way to reconcile the incredibly poor quality of Beats products with a hopeful future for Apple. Can someone make the argument for why this is a good idea?
Quality of product is unimportant. Vast market of "gullible fools" proves this.
Currently there are a lot of different headphones that have very similar specs - I suspect that some company is mass producing drivers and other companies are iust putting these into fashion shells and selling them at large profit. (WESC is an example of a company that I think is doing this).
In this market - not very good headphones sold with large profits to people who care more about looks than sound quality - Beats headphones is exciting buy.
Don't forget that many people will be listening to poor quality source material - poorly ripped; weird dynamic compression; etc.
Apple's market, however, is not gullible fools. They produce quality products that do not lie about their quality. This authenticity and quality is key to their success.
I was downvoted for a snarky comment about having to replace Beats if they were provided as the standard quality for iPhones in particular. OK that's fair. But with what I believe to have been Job's fastidious attention to quality, I find it difficult to understand how he would have accepted the sound quality. The branding issue has a certain, even large value, but there's also the loss of reputation for quality that using what are objectively poor quality sound reproducers will I think bring, to consider as well.
The quality of the audio electronics in iPhones is quite alright. The iPhone's have measured well and sound quite OK given the limitations on space and power. The standard earbuds provided with them are poor quality though, and as an electronics engineer, audio engineer, and musician I would be quite disappointed if Apple allowed this sound reproduction shortcoming to persist. Monster Turbines like the Copper Pro are substantially better than Beats, so upgrading quality might happen, and what I say will be irrelevant.
I want Apple to continue to strive for excellence in quality, and not to let that focus lapse if concentrating on branding and market share.
My first ever downvoted comment alluded to the fact that my iphone earbuds were never used and collected dust in a drawer. The first pair I had with an iPod were quickly replaced by cheap AKG's costing about $7, and the pair in the drawer I gave to a lady customer in an apple store who I overheard asking about them. I arranged to give them to her for free. No use wasting them really.
The iPod and iPhone earbuds seem to me to be an anomaly. They are one of the few areas where it appeared style trumped substance. I can get similar Chinese knockoffs for about a dollar from different places. The cirrus chips and surrounding electronics in the iPhone, and Wolfson's in some iPods are quite capable musically.
My point is more about the legend of Jobs the perfectionist that I've heard so much about in these and other pages. If he were to turn his attention to the earbuds and headphones then I find it incongruous that he would have let the reputation of mediocrity with the Beats sound rest unopposed.
I myself see this as a slide away from innovation.
The Momentum On-Ear† are top notch quality, full of bass while keeping meds and highs detailed all the while costing much less. Technically, Beats cans are definitely overpriced, you're definitely paying for the style (which is not necessarily a bad thing per se)
† The Momentum over ear have a totally different, much more balanced sound. Almost a monitor headset, except with detail being just right so that they don't give too much fatigue.
Some are speculating that Apple is more interested in the beats music streaming service. I'm not sure I buy that -- doesn't Apple nearly have its own? Even if they don't, surely they've got the foundation set to build one quite effortlessly.
Beats is EXTREMELY WELL positioned to be a major iTunes competitor without the overhead of computer hardware and software divisions. Not only that, but while Apple is cool, Dre is much, much cooler.
Beats streaming apparently has about 200,000 subscribers. That doesn't seem so cool when it's competitor Spotify has about 10 million subscribers.[1] Even if you think Apple is going for the subscriber base it still doesn't make sense.
I don't think it's about Apple purchasing a turnkey subscription service. Beats is an extremely strong brand with a lot of momentum who has been built from a consumer-electronics foundation, where Apple still has laptops and whatnot markets to wrangle. Beats likely does not have the infrastructure to be a turnkey rebranded acquisition anyway. However, download sales are down and going lower, so Apple does need to think about a future where streaming is dominant.
They are over marketed a bit and over priced, sure, but just as much as Bose, B&O and a lot of other premium sound brands.
How do they objectively have "incredibly poor quality"? Do you have a link that support they have really poor sound quality or bad build quality or horrible customer satisfaction rate?
“In terms of sound performance, they are among the worst you can buy,” says Tyll Hertsens, editor in chief of InnerFidelity.com, a site for audiophiles. “They are absolutely, extraordinarily bad.”
I'm a bit of an audiophile myself, so I wouldn't listen to Beats, but I do think "bad" is a value judgement. I want a neutral reproduction of the music, and I get that with my Grado's. The Beats customer wants lots of thumpy bass. We each get what we want.
This is exactly it - they give a 'fun' listening experience that people enjoy, and mistake for sound quality. They're paying a high price for a brand and experience, rather than for the quality of the components, like many other premium brands.
I don't wear them, but I don't hate the people who do (though I'm not huge on Beats' "the way it was meant to sound/the way the musician intended" branding)
"they give a 'fun' listening experience that people enjoy"
ding that's the crux of it. people want something that makes them feel good, which often isn't something you can quantify in a lab. so rather than trying to build a better headphone, beats built the equivalent of a booming car stereo strapped to your head, and that evokes a very specific emotional response for most of their customers.
fwiw: i have a pair of Bose QC15 cans that i got as a gift from work. i think they're crap for reproduction purposes, but the experience they're designing for is noise cancellation.
It's not really, when frequency response is a measurable quantity - sound quality can be, and is defined, and Beats do not fare well[1]. But you're right, they do look cool, and they have a fun listening experience.
I once tried to help someone with a pair of beats headphones that they purchased as a present for a relative. The complaint was that they didn't sound right.
I tested them out. It was horrible, it sounded almost like what it sounds like when a stereo headphone jack is only partially inserted -- on three different devices and two different pairs of headphones.
They suck and are a major ripoff.
Whenever something advertises beats audio, I know that it's not a product for me.
They have come a long way since 2011. I'm listening to my post-Dre-branded Beats right now and they sound good. And I like to think I'm not just one of the gullible sub-human tools the people participating in this thread enjoy thinking they're so far above.
I've been using their streaming app since it was released and it's fantastic. It puts the others to shame IMO. I'd been using Spotify for about 4 years before Beats. The volume and quality of playlists they have created is amazing and the app design is quite nice. I find it great for discovering new music (and you still have the option to search the catalog too).
Quality when applied to speakers and headphones is typically demonstrated by frequency response, with a perfectly flat response being the pinnacle. Headphones like Beats appeal to people who have only had bargain headphones (think a few bucks), and they do this by having attractive packaging and just basically amping up the bass response because bass has a "wow factor".
This is simply untrue. The best headphones, speakers, and amplifiers, are designed to faithfully reproduce the recorded signal. Anything that does something other than that is a poorly designed product, or a product that is intentionally misleading the consumer. Most cheap products accidentally fail at this goal. Beats products are intentionally designed to be cheap to manufacture, while being bass-heavy and overly bright on top, to disguise their poor quality.
A flat response is always desirable to the listener (whether they know it, or not). If the listener desires EQ (for a bass-heavy and bright experience), they can apply it before it goes out to the transducer. Old stereos used to have a "loudness" button to slap this kind of curve onto the audio, but all modern playback devices have EQ and such available. But, I'd recommend using good quality headphones and listening as the engineer and artist intended.
Some people, perhaps most people, want a strong bass. Are they wrong?
Not to say that Beats are great or anything, but applying a bass boost to something with a flat response is not going to produce better bass than housing, speaker, etc that all resonate together at the right frequency.
Another thing to keep in mind is that most people will be using these in noisy environments.
> Some people, perhaps most people, want a strong bass. Are they wrong?
I think that if people want a strong bass, they should listen to music that has strong bass and use headphones that will accurately reproduce it.
If they want music that doesn't have strong bass to sound like it does, well that's the role of the equalizer, not the headphones. The role of the headphones is to take whatever signal they're given and accurately reproduce it.
That's what the comment you're replying to is saying.
This is simply untrue. The best headphones, speakers, and amplifiers, are designed to faithfully reproduce the recorded signal.
Have you seen the actual frequency response curves of headphones? They are by no means flat! They can approach flat from 20-20k, but there are always trade offs, at least until you get to certain price points.
What is good or bad sound is largely subjective and socially conditioned. The expectations around binaural recordings of natural sound are very different from highly produced studio production. What is bad in one context is good in another and vice versa. And while I'd go for headphones with better frequency response, it's not the be-all end all measurement either.
Then again, maybe Beats are a tragedy, since we are getting to a point technologically where every headphone could have reference class performance, if that is what the market wanted. That's not what the market wants. Maybe that's the real tragedy.
"Have you seen the actual frequency response curves of headphones? They are by no means flat!"
Yes. And, as I said: Most cheap products accidentally fail at this goal.
It costs a bit of money to produce a quality transducer that is stable, reliably mass-produced, and lasts a long time. Not as much for headphones as for larger transducers, however. For $100 you can buy any of several models that are extremely accurate (compared to what $100 would buy you in speakers). Sennheiser, Shure, AKG, and Audio Technica all offer several models in the $50-$100 range that will destroy Beats offerings at even much higher price points.
Nonetheless, just because most people's cheap headphones suck doesn't mean that a company producing expensive headphones that suck should be given a pass. In a world with good products in a field I care about, why wouldn't I encourage people to choose them over a clearly inferior product? Beats is a demonstrably inferior product with good marketing.
Combining the speaker and the EQ might not work for your use case. That doesn't make it a bad choice by the manufacturer or the consumer. Targeting a particular class of user by combining products that are often used together has been very successful in a plethora of markets. Apple is kind of the poster child for integrating accessories in an opinionated fashion. The built-in camera on the iMac comes to mind. Even the choice to use a 3.5mm jack on the iPod could fit the frame of your argument.
Me, I'm a Skippy Natural guy, but I see a place on the shelf for Goober too ;)
It's disingenuous to say that this is the way the engineer intended it to sound. It's probably how it did sound to the engineer, but that's not the same as how he or she intends it to sound. Any competent engineer knows that people will be listening to the music on a wide variety of sound systems.
The NS10 has been out of production for years, and I haven't seen them in a studio in quite some time. Though, when I was in college (I went to college for audio engineering), every studio I worked in had a pair (in addition to one or two other types of monitor).
It is true that for a decade or two, the NS10 was the monitor on which more records were produced than any other. And, they are reasonably accurate. There are more accurate speakers than the NS10, even at similar prices, but part of the value of the NS10 was that you'd have them wherever you were working. The mastering engineer would have a pair of them, too, so you'd know everybody in the path from tracking to cutting the master would be hearing roughly the same thing. But, it's worth mentioning that I've never been in a professional studio that only had a pair of NS10s. They were considered the sanity check speakers...not the speakers used for all of your mixing and such.
Anyway, the newer models (HS series or MSP series) from Yamaha might be a good choice, if you want good reference monitors.
But, a reasonable level accuracy should be the goal of every transducer. Just because consumers make often make poorly informed decisions based on marketing and tricks played on the ear (because a "hyped" sound, like the Beats headphones and devices, will sound louder and thus "better"...but will also be more fatiguing and will have other negative effects on your listening experience) doesn't mean people who know better should just shut up and let manufacturers do so without criticism.
NS10s are so popular because they're so non-complimentary. Yamaha (and I've read conflicting accounts) either deliberately created a speaker that was so non-flattering to any audio, or accidentally released a product that became a studio mix engineer hit for the same reasons.
I've heard producers and studio engineers say that if something sounds good on NS10s, it'll sound good on anything.
This is the same reason professional mastering engineers will sometimes insist on listening to mixes on average car stereos, ipod headphones, and cheap consumer audio systems. It doesn't matter how good it sounds on your $100,000 studio system if it sounds terrible to 99% of the population.
Typically you aim for as much of the audible spectrum as possible with as flat of a response as possible... From there you adjust for personal listening preferences. Some cans tend to accentuate bass a bit, others mids or trebs. Flat headphones are preferred for mixing/mastering of course. That's about as objective a measure as you can find.
Bose is a damn bad example as a premium brand to compare Beats to. Their consumer headphones are widely considered to be way overpriced and gimmicky. The brands Beats should really be compared to are Sennheiser, Shure, A-T, Denon, Beyerdynamic and the like. Any offerings from these brands at a price point from $100 and up offer at least as good sound quality as Beats' cans and for a much lower price, and many of their phones look pretty good as well.
And yet... Bose QC15 are simple, light, comfortable and sound fine. The real point, however, is that they are amazing at tuning out the outside world, and thus are fantastic for coding. Their lack of audiophile cred means absolutely nothing compared to all the above, and if you are in an environment with noisy children or coworkers you won't want open headphones anyway. So for the actual use cases of many of us here, QC15 are actually a good choice. Regarding Beats, I actually have no opinion since I've never tried them, but people who like them enjoy them...
I'll go one further and assert that in a noisy environment, the Bose QC15 have the absolute best overall sound quality of any headphone I'm aware of. By a very, very long mark.
I had a few very sophisticated sets of expensive headphones (plus a headphone amplifier) and I just don't use them any more. When I don't need to wear headphones, I'll sit down in my theatre room. When I need to wear headphones, it's because I'm in an environment with other noises (office, travel, etc) and the noise cancellation trumps any other cans' refinement.
Even Beyerdynamic 770 Pro? I tried active noise canceling in the past, but found the sound ultimately fatiguing. I prefer passive cancellation now, and 10db is a significant amount of isolation.
Absolutely; the 770 Pro are one of the cans I own (the 80 ohms model). They're exactly the set I reach for when I want to listen at home with privacy.
In a noisy environment though, they just can't compete. Yes, the 770 Pro have excellent passive isolation characteristics, but they do absolutely nothing for low frequencies [0] whereas the QC15 achieves 20db [1]. This makes all the difference in the world when you're trying to escape into music while flying.
I know what you mean about active noise cancelling being fatiguing. I've been lured into noise cancellation before, only to be repelled by the strange feeling of pressure within the ear. I wouldn't have given a moment's consideration to the QC15 had I not been loaned a pair by a friend. I'm not going to say the QC15 are perfect for everyone, but to my ears the pressure phenomenon is pretty much nonexistent. I've worn them for an entire 13 hour flight without a moment's discomfort.
Indeed! Their active noise canceling headphones actually retain the bass while removing the external noise. Other active noise cancelling heaphones tend to blunt the bass.
I would second this statement strongly. The only other brand I'd add to the list is AKG as they also have some wonderful headphones at around this price point.
I've done AB comparisons with friends who've bought Beats, Sony, Skull Candy etc. and they're always blown away by the difference between the product they bought, and my AKGs, A-Ts or Sennheisers. I recently tested some Beyerdynamics and would highly recommend them, although I still think A-Ts are the best bang for buck around.
This - I bought AT headphones (c£150) at Christmas, and they're astonishing. I had a listen to some Beats 'phones in the apple store (£279) last time I was getting a repair done, and they were astonishingly bad - fuzzy, tinny high end, massive overbearing bass.
But - from an Apple perspective, they're not buying just the headphones tech, but the manufacturing capacity as well, I'd assume.
I tend to agree when it comes to headphones. I'd go with sennheiser over any other brand anytime.
But the bose soundlink mini (bluetooth speaker, they are quite fashionable these days) has an incredible sound and a similar price tag as the vastly inferior beats pill.
Bose professional and aviation products are actually superior to Apple quality. Their consumer noise canceling is pretty good. I agree about their consumer speakers.
I don't know anything about build quality or customer satisfaction, but this video gives you an excellent idea how they sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pK7QbLNjno — try to listen to the demo with relatively neutral headphones. FWIW, I listened to Beats at an Apple store, and the video fits nicely with my impressions.
I would argue they're way worse than Bose. Bose products, at least to me, sound good but are overpriced. Beats products are overpriced but also sound bad.
Modular phones will create opportunities for high quality audio drivers for Android.
Apple products are synonymous with quality audio, and Apple's success is partly attributed to it's investment in music technology.
A brand like Beats which is popular with young audiophiles could potentially transform Android into a recognizable music platform if they provided a Beats audio driver and quality headphones.
This is a risky proposition for Apple as it would drive more of their high-end audience to view Android as a serious audio contender.
> Apple products are synonymous with quality audio
Are they?
I like Apple products but the headphones really aren't great, certainly not for what you pay for them (looking at the prices for the headphones alone).
In that sense you might argue there is a certain synergy with Beats...
Currently there are a lot of different headphones that have very similar specs - I suspect that some company is mass producing drivers and other companies are iust putting these into fashion shells and selling them at large profit. (WESC is an example of a company that I think is doing this).
In this market - not very good headphones sold with large profits to people who care more about looks than sound quality - Beats headphones is exciting buy.
Don't forget that many people will be listening to poor quality source material - poorly ripped; weird dynamic compression; etc.