[Daishiman]

I think the difference between the Christian and Buddhist approaches to the paradoxes is the fact that Christian theologists have spent centuries devising new doctrine that accomodates the contradictory statements in a sort of logical superstructure, whereas no such thing happens in Buddhist contradictions.

Part of the reason why I suspect this is because Christian dogma ultimately reflects on concrete precepts that the faithful must abide to, since belief is an essential component to salvation in Christianity and relates to concrete actions and thoughts.

Buddhist dogman in general, with the notable, extremely fuzzy, and highly opinionated exception of karma, does not have such a problem, since no particular belief system is considered critical for enlightenment, since all beliefs are delusion and only a direct experience with reality (the Deathless) is truly relevant.

[muraiki]

The approach in Eastern Christianity (pre-Great Schism groups such as the Orthodox, Coptic, and others) is generally that of Apophatic or Negative theology.

"Leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and non-being, that thou mayest arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with Him who transcends all knowledge." --St. Dionysius the Areopagite

A consequence of the Apophatic approach is that of an emphasis on knowledge of God through union with His uncreated Energy; that is, experiential knowledge. This is termed theosis or deification, to become by grace that which God is by nature (albeit while retaining the essential distinction between created human and uncreated God). As such, dogma is the accumulated experience of the Saints in this way of union, not arbitrary beliefs that must be adhered to. Salvation is not a destination with a ticket (believe X to get into Heaven) but rather the process of deification, a process which begins in this life and proceeds unceasingly in the eternal Kingdom.

It should also be noted that I'm not talking about some fringe group of Christianity, but rather the second largest group of Christians in the world. If these ideas interest you, a good book to pick up is "The Mountain of Silence," in which an anthropologist visits Orthodox monasteries in Greece to try and understand these things, under the tutelage of a monk. He presents the teachings from the standpoint of an outsider in a very readable way.

[splat]

There certainly have been similar approaches in Western Christianity. An explicit attempt at synthesizing Buddhist philosophy with Christianity was made by the Catholic monk Thomas Merton back in the 1960s. Moreover there has been a long mystical tradition in Western Christianity as well. Look to saints like John of the Cross and Thomas a Kempis among others. It’s more that there’s a difference in emphasis between the two churches. The Catholic Church has historically placed more of an emphasis on developing a scholarly, logical theology whereas the Eastern Churches have put more emphasis on theosis, or obtaining a vision of God (participating in a vision of God might be a better way of phrasing that). But neither sees either approach as being in conflict with the other.

I would also claim that the idea that salvation is a process of deification has also long been present in the Catholic Church, the idea of purgatory being one important example. Both Purgatorio and Paradiso from Dante’s Comedy also point toward this idea. But the notion of deification as being a process that continues through life and into death seems to be missing in many Protestant communities.

[Daishiman]

It's very intersting how St. Dionysius' quote is remarkably similar to Dogen Zenji's Fukanzazengi, the universal recommendations for Zen:

"Therefore, put aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. If you want to realize such, get to work on such right now."

"Do not judge true or false. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. How could that be limited to sitting or lying down?"

[muraiki]

Yes, there's definitely room for dialogue between Orthodoxy and Zen (and many other eastern religions). In fact, I came to Orthodoxy from Buddhism in college via an excellent class that compared hesychast prayer to yoga. While I haven't read this paper myself, it was written by my teacher and formed the theme of the class I took: http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0861/2008/0350-08610...

Dogen's Shobogenzo is interesting in that he is trying to convey the ineffable by abusing language. Perhaps from the viewpoint of Wittgenstein, Dogen is trying to break the language game. Then again I never got too far into it, so I might be misrepresenting it.

However, it's important to note that in apophatic theology the intent isn't to cut off discourse to the point where talking about God becomes empty of content completely. What saves the Christian from total unknowing is that the unknowable God has made Himself known through the Incarnation; Christ has shown the path to knowledge of the unknowable, which is the way of the cross: to account only oneself as deserving of death and to account all as worthy of the Kingdom. God is thus known in His energies (in a sense, actions) but unknown in His essence.

As such, Orthodoxy does maintain ideas of true and false, but with the twist that Truth is a Person. To conceive of it differently, truth is a relation between persons, in the sense of being the action of humble, selfless love. But I feel like now I'm saying too many words and only obscuring the meaning. :)

[notdonspaulding]

> It should also be noted that I'm not talking about some fringe group of Christianity, but rather the second largest group of Christians in the world.

Can you be more specific? Are you talking about Orthodox Christians being the second largest group? If so, are you considering Roman Catholic to be the largest group?

[dragonwriter]

Eastern Christianity is more than just Orthodox (and, in fact, overlaps with Roman Catholicism, in that the non-Latin Rite -- "Uniate" -- Churches in communion with Rome are both Roman Catholic and Eastern, the latter particularly where it comes to broad philosophical traditions while the former applies to the particular points of theology and authority at the center of the Great Schism.)

[muraiki]

Yes, I'm sorry for being unclear; the three main groups of Christianity would be Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. But my point isn't to make some kind of numbers claim (it wouldn't matter if Orthodox actually fall in 3rd place anymore), but rather to illustrate that these are not fringe beliefs.