[ars]

> we're really just apes with shiny toys

No, we are incredibly intelligent people who have invented amazing things.

50-100 years from now climate change will be viewed the way nuclear winter is viewed now.

In the language of the article you are an ecologist because you believe people will accept changes without doing anything about them.

[jal278]

We surely have invented amazing things -- and we are intelligent -- and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors.

These brains of ours really are not well-suited for considering really-long-term abstract uncertain problems that require altruism to solve (e.g. the environment as the tragedy of the commons, or solid agreements between nations to dismantle nuclear arms).

The thing is, it is hard to be objective about our limitations as a species: being that we are a member of our species we are each a bit biased. Overcoming that bias, to see humanity in its current state as basically a selfish tribalistic society, is challenging.

Note that I mean selfish in the larger sense -- that generally we devalue human lives with increasing distance from our own birthplace, country, class, time, etc.

[ars]

See, when you say "shiny toy" you imply someone gave you the toy - you use it, but can't make it and don't know how it works. But we invented all we have, so we can rightfully be proud of it.

(I am aware you didn't invent that saying (I don't know who did), but you used it without thinking about how stupid of a saying it actually is.)

> and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors.

OK, that's just so ridiculous as to verge on absurd. Our brains are so far removed from an ape that you wouldn't know we were related if all you could observe were actions (rather than form and shape).

> are not well-suited for considering really-long-term abstract uncertain problems that require altruism to solve (e.g. the environment as the tragedy of the commons

Any yet somehow we have solved that over and over. And humans are the most altruistic of all the species - witness how we rush to help when there is a disaster, or how much charity we give - or that we invented of concept of charity in the first place!

> or solid agreements between nations to dismantle nuclear arms).

We haven't done that because we don't want to do that, not because we can't. And we don't want to for very good, thought out reasons, not because of some brain lack. You might disagree on the reasons themself, but you can't claim there were no reasons.

> Overcoming that bias, to see humanity in its current state as basically a selfish tribalistic society, is challenging.

And presumably you have done so? And you have one of these flawed brains? You seem to have a contradiction here. Not that I agree with your analysis anyway. You are trying to use tribalistic as a negative but it doesn't have that meaning. And we are not selfish, we are competitive. Selfish would imply hurting others for no gain of your own and while some individuals do that, as a whole we don't.

> that generally we devalue human lives with increasing distance from our own birthplace, country, class, time, etc.

We don't devalue them because they are far, but rather we don't believe we have the ability to do anything about their lives, so we ignore them. The closer someone is to you the more likely you are to help - is that your point? But people don't help more because they are more similar - people help more because they have more ability to do so.

[jal278]

The way I would interpret the phrase 'apes with shiny toys' (although it was not me who used that phrase in this thread) -- is that we are slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology. Thoreau said: "Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end."

It's just that technology is far from a panacea, and it creates as many problems as it solves. Worse, the problems it creates can be of greater magnitude than its solutions. For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction.

The tragedy of the commons is far from solved; one example is that the environment is a commons that industrialized nations abuse (and whether it will have a devastating effect on our future is yet to be decided). It is great that we have made moral progress as a species, and that we do have charity; yet how far has our morality progressed when we have food enough to feed the world yet starvation continues?

No, I'm not claiming that I've entirely overcome the bias of my brain, only that I'm aware that human brains were evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage.

Finally, I entirely disagree with your assertion that we devalue lives in other countries because we don't have the ability to affect their lives; of course we can affect the lives of people in other countries -- through charity as you yourself point out, and in the way that our politics affect other countries.

For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so (e.g. the civilian casualities in Afghanistan dwarf the losses of Americans in 9/11)[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_...

[ars]

I apologize for saying you were the one who said that about the shiny toys.

But wow do we come from different viewpoints. Are you sure we both have the same type of brain? :)

> slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology

You still think we are more or less similar to apes? I'm having a hard time responding to this because I just can't understand how you think that way. The difference between humans and apes is not just a matter of degree, it's a matter of kind. Apes have more in common with mice than they do with humans, despite how different they look to mice, and how similar to humans.

We aren't infatuated with technology - the use we have of technology is put to solving the same problems we've always had. How to connect with people, and how to live.

> For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction.

We still aren't. Or are you under the mistaken impression that nuclear bombs could cause human extinction? All the bombs ever created couldn't do that, even if carefully detonated (they could cause devastation, but not not extinction). We have a greater capacity to cause disasters, but an even greater capacity to solve them, as a whole a net win. And did you loose sight of the fact that we made these bombs - and only used them twice? That speaks volumes about humanity. I bet you would have never predicted that if you were asked a few decades ago if we would use them.

> evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage

The modern world was not thrust upon us by an outside force, we created it because it suits us. We don't need to "evolve" to match it - we created it exactly the way we want.

> For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so

You have not made your point. Our president can affect Iraqi lives, but any individual person on the street can do nothing about it. We read about sectarian violence between two religious sects (Suni, Shi'ite) that to non-Muslims appear identical and just can't understand why they even fight, much less do anything about it.

[orthecreedence]

At the risk of engaging in a futile argument, I feel like I have to interject.

> Apes have more in common with mice than they do with humans

No, apes are social, tribal creatures that inter-communicate vocally and via body language. They use tools and manipulate their environment to make their quality of life better. They have territory and fight to the death to protect that territory. If you were to ask me what species this describes, the first thing that would pop into my head is "human."

If I were to say to someone "You're ugly and your mother's a whore" most people would have a sudden increase in adrenaline, followed by a wave of uncontrollable anger. Many times, this anger would drive us to do something like lash out physically or verbally. The emotions and feelings we experience throughout the day control us and shape our experience, just like they do an ape or a dog. Our difference from other mammals is really only defined by our ego, or our very basic awareness of self. Our awareness of self is rudimentary at best, yet our egos over-inflate it's abilities and importance.

We've created the environment around us as does a rabbit burrows into the ground. While the materials we fabricate and build with are unique, all we are doing is constructing shelters to feel safe.

Your example of nuclear bombs and having them for logical reasons is, in my opinion, incorrect. Our logical reasons for having weapons that could wipe out all of humanity can be reduced to little more than an alpha ape beating its chest at another. Rationalize it however you want. Most of our behavior, even on the macro level, is controlled by our inherently tribal instinct.

We have not transcended our animal nature, not in the slightest. We've only fooled ourselves into thinking we have. Language, technology, government; take these away and you've got apes. Even then, language and government are not unique to humans.