[anonymousdev]

You would hate your life if you were surrounded by TDD fanatics?

Would you love your life if you had to change huge applications with 100k+ LOC without any kind of testing and if anything breaks at the client, it's your fault?

TDD didn't appear out of the void because some wankers want to deride everyone else, it's the ONLY WAY to have tests in the business world because if the features are developed first, the business guys will say "let's skip the tests to cut the costs".

[mh_yam]

There's a balance. >it's the ONLY WAY to have tests in the business world

Perhaps in some organizations. I feel sorry if you have to work in such an environment. My company recognizes the value of testing-we have 15,000 acceptance tests and unit tests, and we do TDD perhaps 20% of the time.

I worked at a bank where there were 0 unit tests or acceptance tests. Just some half-assed QA guy going through toy scenarios and pushing the 'approve' button. That's not where I want to be (therefore I quit), but I also don't want to be in an environment where people scream and call me an infidel if I don't do TDD.

[chadcf]

I think fanatic and zealot is the key word.

I'm more of a pragmatist. I think one size fits all is a bad strategy, and different projects have different needs.

There is nothing I hate more than working with people who passionately believe that there is only one true way to do something (like testing) and believe the process and 'craft' is more important than other factors like, say, delivering business value.

There is a lot between your extremes of TDD and no tests at all. And when I hear a developer say some methodology is the ONLY WAY I find it's best to run, not walk.

[anonymousdev]

I'm not saying TDD is the only way to write code, I'm saying TDD is the only way to make sure that you will have minimal automated testing.

About your condescending remarks about delivering business value, I'd like to see you delivering business value while working with 10 other people on a tightly coupled 100k+ LOC application with no tests. Do that, then I might take you seriously when you say that the craft and process don't matter.

EDIT: Here's how business is done in some parts of the world. I give you the crash tests for the world's cheapest car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUdKf0FQgEg .Businessmen will gladly endanger human lives in the name of cutting costs, do you actually think they will allow any kind of software testing?

[chadcf]

> I'm not saying TDD is the only way to write code, I'm saying TDD is the only way to make sure that you will have minimal automated testing.

We'll have to disagree there. It's a fine way. There is rarely just one true way however.

> About your condescending remarks about delivering business value, I'd like to see you delivering business value while working with 10 other people on a tightly coupled 100k+ LOC application with no tests.

I, sadly, do this every day. It sucks.

> I might take you seriously when you say that the craft and process don't matter.

I never said they don't matter.

I'm advocating not taking a black and white view of things, which you seem to be doing. There are more options out there than 100% TDD 100% of the time or skipping testing completely...