[scott_s]

Without the infrastructure around you, you would not have the opportunity to succeed. Much of this infrastructure is public - paid for and run by the government. Taxes are not the government stealing your income from you. It's the government pooling resources so the society we live in can continue to function.

There's more to success than making wise choices. It's also have the ability to even have that choice because of your surrounding environment.

[solutionyogi]

Wow, HN folks sure have a 'socialist' slant. Anyway, do you think you are getting your money's worth when you give away 30% of your income in taxes? Do you know how much of the tax money is spent of infrastructure? Look at this chart of US budget spending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY...

65% of taxpayer's money went to defense/social security/medicare-medicaid. Think about it for a moment. 65% of the money spent had nothing to do with infrastructure. Also, do you think that government is spending all the taxpayer's money carefully OR you think that government wastes tremendous waste amount of money? There are 3 ways to spend money:

1. Your own money on yourself. [You are very careful about getting your money's worth and you do spend generously] 2. Your own money on someone else. [You are very careful about getting your money's worth but you spend as little as you can] 3. Someone else's money on someone else. [Let's burn some money to heat up the place!]

Government falls in 3rd category and it's no surprise that there is tremendous waste.

That's why libertarians are advocating 'limited government', 'minimal taxes' so that people (you and me) can keep their hard earned money for themselves and spend as they see fit.

[scott_s]

I actually think people here tend to run more libertarian than socialist.

I wish we spent less on the defense, but the amount spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid sits fine with me. I consider that social infrastructure. When large portions of society go without, all of society suffers.

We see ourselves as fitting into society in different ways. You feel that the government is taking your money in the form of taxes. I feel that I'm paying for the privilege of living in a society that affords me the opportunity to earn money.

[solutionyogi]

Why is the social security/medicare/medicaid program okie with you? What is 'social infrastructure'? Why do you think that government can do a better job at spending your money than you alone? Check my other comment where I have written about money spending patterns. Also in another reply I have written about the amount of waste/fraud incurred by medicare/medicaid.

Trust me, I have no problem with taxes, I understand their need and pay them on time every year. My problem is the already high taxes and the fact that they are increasing. This means that government gets bigger and bigger and wastes all our (yours and mine) hard earned money. Unless you are suggesting that government doesn't waste money, I don't want them to increase taxes.

[Daishiman]

When you can get 40% off the retail price of basic medicine because you can negotiate drug prices en-masse, let me know.

Or how about when making sure education reaches everyone's hands.

See, the funny thing about people defending libertarian positions is that if they hadn't lived in a country with a public education infrastructure, roads, fire brigade and energy, it would be very unlikely that they'd had the capacity to acquire the knowledge and stability they'd need to become what they are today.

The inescapable fact is that they did nothing to "deserve" their health care of education through their infancy, yet it's one of the core reasons they got here, and they have the gall to complain about it.

Evidenced by the high standards of living in countries which do have social infrastructure (and yes, it exists, no need to put quotes around it) it works, and works reasonably well.

Doing infrastructure planning and development for millions of people kicks in economies of scale which are unachievable otherwise. History has effectively shown that social benefits that guarantee a minimal level of rights for education and health have dramatic effects in social mobility and overall quality of life.

[solutionyogi]

Do you really think government will be able to negotiate the price of basic medicine better than say Walmart/Costco? US have had Medicare/Medicaid for years but that had no effect on price of basic medicines.

Walmart enters the market and voila, you can get 90 day prescription for 10$! You can get similar deals at Costco and Sams Club. Show me one government program which has actually reduced the price of medicine. Walmart opens up clinic at their stores at a low cost so that uninsured people can visit the clinic and actually get basic treatment by paying cash. CVS and other pharmacy stores have followed Walmart's footsteps and started their own clinics program.

As I commented elsewhere, having a school voucher system will ensure that everyone gets education while also letting free market do its magic.

I am from India and we don't have any free health care there. We do have free public school but they are terrible. My father worked hard to send me to private school and I did part time work in college to fund my education.

And I am not suggesting that government should not provide public infrastructure. As I have shown in my other comment, not even 1% of your tax money goes towards infrastructure. Why are you not talking about (outraged about) the immense waste by done by defense/social security/medicare medicaid?

[mikeryan]

I don't want people spending their money as they see fit, see I'm not a politician so I can say this.

This why I don't see libertarianism (or even conservatism) working in general. There are vast swathes of americans who given more money would spend it irresponsibly - and what do you do then when someone spends their limited income on new truck nuts instead of health insurance?

[solutionyogi]

Great. Please allow me to control your bank account so that I can dictate how much you spend on your car, on your health insurance, on your vacation, on your wedding, on your kids, on your personal growth, on your food... each and everything which affects you.

Are you okie? I hear a 'no'. Then why do you think you want government to control how others spend their money? Do you really think someone else knows better than you what to do you with your own hard earned money? And why do you think libertarianism doesn't work? America is a living proof that libertarianism/capitalism works.

Another example: I am an Indian and when I was a kid, I remember how poor our country was. Since India decided to open up the trade in 1991 and adopted some of the libertarian policies, it has flourished. I don't know how old are you but did you hear about India as a vibrant economy 25 years back? So please don't suggest that libertarianism doesn't' work because I have seen it with my own eyes how well it works.

[mikeryan]

"Do you really think someone else knows better than you what to do you with your own hard earned money?"

You're not answering my question. I trust myself, heck you seem smart enough, I even trust you. I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally.

You can not call America a libertarian country and wave it like an example. Its far from it and thankfully so. The most economic success this country has seen in the last 25 years was the eight were it was run by democratic leader (you know the tax more spend more people).

Likewise India's success in the last 25 years is great, but its a bit hard to show that as an example when it houses 1/3 of the worlds poor and 42% live beneath the international poverty line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

[anamax]

> I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally.

I've got news for you. I don't trust YOU to decide how to spend their money or my money.

Yes, people do dumb things with their money. However, they do dumber things with other people's money. And, since the potential damange is greater in the latter case than in the former, that's double-plus ungood.

[mikeryan]

So what no gov't? No taxes? Every year we just let everyone pay what they think roads/school/defense deserves?

What do you do with large populations of kids can't go to school because their parents don't want to pay for it.

Or people die because of lack of food and drug regulation

Or when kids break their legs without health insurance.

Or when our parents and grandparents don't have a retirement fund because they saved foolishly.

I fail to see how having a gov't spending our money makes the potential damage worse.

The list goes on.

[solutionyogi]

India became independent from British rule in 1947. It opened up economy in 1991. India has progressed more in last 18 years (from 1991 to 2009) than it did in 44 years (1947 to 1991). You can confirm this with any Indian who is more than 30 years old. [Compared this to US which has been independent since 1788, more than 200 years]

I hope you would agree that poverty can not be eliminated overnight. I am thrilled that India is making progress and I can assure that over the next 50 years, India will also join the rank of developed nations if they continue to adopt libertarian policies.

Anyway, coming back to your argument that you don't think others are smart enough to know how to spend their money. Just because percentage of the population is not smart enough, do you think I should suffer (by paying higher taxes) because of that?

Also, let's for a moment say that government should decide my health care. What's next? They will tell me what to eat as well. Where do you draw the line?

[BrentRitterbeck]

Finally, someone thinks like I do! It's amazing to see that people from outside of America think along the lines of preventing government from overstepping its boundary while many Americans, (NOTE: I am American), are happily starting to let the government intervene in their life.

[mikeryan]

Hmm... from 1991 to 2009 we've had 2 web bubbles. Maybe that had something to do with it?

But you're still ignoring the core issue.