[michaelochurch]

Now I work at a large tech company in SV and wont be involved in another startup unless I'm a founder.

You're making the right call. I'm probably older than you and I've done two startups. My career hasn't recovered from the lost time. Total waste.

Most startups (by startup, I mean "company focused on such rapid growth that VC investment is mandatory") are pure shit. They fuck up your finances, drain your emotional reserve, and (unless you're a founder) often spit you into junior roles that you won't be able to stand after a taste of real autonomy.

If you don't learn much, then you've wasted time. If you do learn a lot (which you can, with a good run as de facto CTO) then you still end up in a junior role, due to your lack of credibility on-paper, for which you're massively overqualified. That's the worst outcome, because you're better off actually being junior if you're in a junior role; overperformance is far more dangerous (in large companies) than underperformance.

[kelnos]

I suspect we're roughly the same age; my experience (after 3 startups as an early or semi-early employee) has been mostly the exact opposite. My finances are in great shape, I'm emotionally and socially healthy (the first one ended up hurting in the end, but I got out of there before too much damage was done), and at all three I've held senior development roles and am/was given a lot of latitude and autonomy.

I have no delusions that my option grants will turn me into a millionaire, but my salary is good/great, and I'm able to live well below my means (in San Francisco, even).

I tend to think startups messing up your career is more of a function of your selection of company and attitude than anything else. It's just a job. It'll only break you if you let it.

[bri3d]

As a junior developer there's at least a chance that future engagements will give you a decent work-sample test where you can prove that your experience is worth more than the sum of your "intern" resume.

It's even bleaker for non-technical roles IMO: get hired as an "office manager," try to do everything asked to a high standard, and end up as a janitor, concierge, personal assistant, accountant, and collections manager for accounts receivable, all while getting paid as a receptionist.

[kamaal]

The last paragraph is gem. I mean I wish more people understood this. If you are not a founder and made big money. Any other position where you can learn more than your age level peers is taken as arrogance and not qualification.

I report to 'architects' who haven't done or know 1% of me. By the fact that they've hopped 10 mega corps and with some neat interview skills always ensures they take home big salaries and bonuses.

While technical skills are good. Soft skills, social skills, a strong network is ultimately what really matter in the real world. Focus on that with a occasional focus on tech trends. Once you do that you can relax in positions of authority to make junior devs slog for you.

[zwegner]

Speaking of "real autonomy", did you put any further thought into your idea of Autonomy Funds[0]?

I thought it was very intriguing, if perhaps hard to get off the ground. Definitely would be a good antidote to the kind of SV craziness you describe, but of course not really in line with the status quo. I'd like to see some more discussion on this, and maybe get involved (though my business knowledge is near nil).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195

[michaelochurch]

I don't think it's the right structure. I like the idea of open allocation (which is more defined) in a decent company better (although that, too, is rare). Paying typical young people to "do whatever" is not going to lead to the kind of performance that would sustain the fund. Also, I love the idea, but I feel like a lot of the best people are going to still go to YC. There isn't really room for more than one YC, because (like academia, which is all about reputation) most incubators are a reputation drag.

Also, I think "startups" generally suck. By startups, I mean companies built to become billion-dollar concerns (and willing to throw culture and people under the bus to get there). I'm starting to think of that as raving narcissism. People should want to do great work without that instant gratification and entitlement of Big Exitzzzzlol!!!!111

A better idea is this: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/fixing-employ... . The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant. Let's say my fair market value is $200/hour now. I might sell a call option, struck at $150/hour, exercisable within 5 years. That's probably worth $100-150 because I'll be more skilled in the future. It lets people finance their career needs early, but it also makes the consulting market astronomically more efficient because the option-holders (who would tend to buy underpriced options) have an economic incentive to find work for talented people.

[dllthomas]

"The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant."

I really like that idea - there's not currently a marketplace for this, is there?

[redmaverick]

overperformance is far more dangerous (in large companies) than underperformance.

Why? Can you explain.

[johngalt]

The curse of competence.

In your next family gathering people will ask you to fix their computer. You say 'Sorry I'm not IT, I'm a programmer'. Suddenly they dislike you. Do they dislike your cousin who waits tables for not fixing their computer? No, just you.

Similar themes play out in a business setting. If you're competent everyone will want you to do everything important. Which will result in:

1. You get stretched too thin and start making mistakes -> fired.

2. You refuse to take more than your share of work. This is seen as a slight to whomever you refuse. Similar to the above anecdote.

No one gets upset with the person who can't help them. They get upset when the person who can help them doesn't. Additionally people tend to focus on what you haven't done yet, not what you've already accomplished. The more that you are able to do, the larger the unfulfilled expectations become. Suddenly a large portion of the projects are complaining that they would be further 'if only we could get Redmaverick to help'. Now you're seen as the bottleneck for not helping, rather than the asset because your skills apply in so many areas.

If you are a skilled person who can execute tasks, it is vital that you always frame yourself by your accomplishments. By default your capabilities will be used to create a long string of perceived obligations.

[hga]

"You get stretched too thin and start making mistakes -> fired."

It can be worse than that. In a small startup, you can be the least-worst informed and capable about several critical areas, where you pitch in and do a better job than anyone else could have, and make mistakes.

(In one particularly galling example in my work history where I was employee #1, I recommended an ISP, which was good, but without talking to me the co-founder who set that up also bought their bundled email service, back in 1997 when this was seldom well done. This turned out to be a mistake visible at the top of the company....

Or take firewalls: while I now know a lot more about them, and can set one up with raw iptables or Shorewall, back then all I knew was what I'd read in Cheswick and Bellovin's seminal book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewalls_and_Internet_Securit... and said, "Gauntlet has a good reputation". Yeah, but its company, Trusted Information Systems, had just been bought by Network Associates, which apparently following a common Computer Associates business model of firing almost all of the technical staff and milking the reputation....)

[michaelochurch]

Precisely. If you're "not working up to potential" you may not get fired but you're not going to be promoted. If you drop from a 9 to 7, people notice the -2 delta because changes in performance are much easier to pick up than absolute performance.

I'm (mildly) bipolar. The highs hurt me more at work than the lows. The lows I can push through and compensate for. I have a strong enough work ethic that except in an absolute mind-breaking depression (which I haven't had since my early 20s) I can handle it. In the highs, I either overperform or raise expectations. I always do a very good job of something, but that something might piss someone off.

Reliable median performers, on the other hand, don't piss anyone off or surprise anyone.

[hga]

Of course, as our host points out in Beating the Averages (http://paulgraham.com/avg.html), "If you do everything the way the average startup does it, you should expect average performance. The problem here is, average performance means that you'll go out of business."

Which, if you're one of these "overachievers", increases the chance the start up that hires you, at least early enough that stock options might even vaguely maybe be worth something someday, will fail. This has happened at several that I've worked for, they died hard after I was purged.

[ZoF]

If it's not to personal; do you have any anecdotal indications as to why your bipolar improved after your early twenties?(or rather; why you haven't had a bout of extreme depression since then)

[michaelochurch]

Some mood disorders come on gradually and get worse with time. Others hit hard in the teens and 20s and become less severe in adulthood, sometimes remitting around 50. Treatment helps, exercise is important, and the most important thing to remember is that there's no silver bullet but that a multi-pronged approach (medication, CBT, exercise, yoga/meditation, cutting toxic friends and making good ones, good sleep habits, avoiding drugs including alcohol) can make your life a lot better.

My genetic pattern seems to show more debilitation in the 20s. Unfortunately, some people don't recover from the damage (to health and career) done in that phase. I seem to have made it through the worst, though.

It was in my late 20s that I learned to live with an unstable mood. Sometimes I'll have a panic attack (10 minutes of extreme adrenal excitement for no reason) or a depression attack (an intense 2-4 hour bout of depression that, while leaving me exhausted, seems to leave no lasting mark) but I take a zen approach. Yes, this is actually happening, and it's just emotion. Easier said than done, for sure, but it's an ongoing practice.

Panic attacks I think of as a stern, somewhat obnoxious teacher whose motivations I haven't figured out yet. What makes panic scary is that it can imitate pretty much any physical disease. Phantom smells, visual flashing, chest pain, balance problems, paresthesia, vertigo, vomiting, blurry vision. I've had pretty much all of that shit. Over time, you learn that it's not dangerous. Then it becomes an annoyance (like a traffic jam) rather than a source of terror.

I don't think of myself as disabled by it. Most creative people are on the bipolar spectrum (although two thirds are probably sub-clinical). I don't lose work time to it, and my "never flake" rule keeps it from being too disruptive. I think of myself as traveling the same road as everyone else, but in winter rather than summer. And there are things you can see more clearly when the trees are bare and the air is crisp.

[hga]

Based on a variety of things including family history, my doctors and I believe I have "depression of a bipolar nature" ; not true bipolar but something akin that only expresses itself as depression. Based on his posting just now, it's very different from what he has, except for the "depression attacks", which perhaps got better with time, and definitely got better with anti-depressants, which generally cannot be prescribed to those who are frankly bipolar (and in my case one actually made me hypomanic, that's mania without hallucinations).

The #1 thing you can do to at least not help drive yourself deeper into depression is to learn cognitive therapy, which nowadays has a "behavioral" aspect added to it that I'm not familiar with (this is the CBT Michael refers to in his message composed at the same time as mine). Buy this book; I keep extra copies to give to people: http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-The-Mood-Therapy/dp/03808...

If you're truly bipolar, there's no substitute for a doctor's care as well, you'll probably need a mood stabilizer, of which there are many varieties from the "gold standard" of lithium to modern atypical anti-psychotics.

[sitkack]

You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat.

That is my take and my experience from that statement.

The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting.

[michaelochurch]

You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat.

Bingo. You fucking nailed it.

The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting.

How easy is that? I'm considering that avenue for myself, largely because I'm sick of office politics, re-orgs, and other time-wasting bullshit. With a consulting arrangement, there's no expectation (on either side) of a long-term deal and I think that's better, because most companies renege on their side of the social contract (e.g. investing in their people's careers.)

How do consultants find good ($100+ per hour) work? If I could get the same take-home pay as a consultant, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm honest enough to know that I'm not a team player (unless I assemble the team) but I do great work and I'd rather be in a place where that's respected.

[sitkack]

I'll try and follow up on this tomorrow, but I dont have a lot of insight. It is difficult. Lots of hustling.

[carterschonwald]

indeed, having any deal flow in consulting requires A LOT of work building up a reputation of trust and quality with clients (and choosing clients well!)

[gergles]

http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

The Gervais Principle is a fascinating series of articles that explain why this is the case and also give a lot of insight into corporate America. It's a great read.

[jayvanguard]

A very relevant line from this article:

"Unless you very quickly demonstrate that you know your own value by successfully negotiating more money and/or power, you are marked out as an exploitable clueless Loser."

If you are working long hours and aren't rapidly negotiating your way up and into serious equity then you are marking yourself as a sucker. Don't be surprised if they continue to exploit you.

[JoeAltmaier]

I'd just call that bad management. Team building requires some skill, including adjusting equity and compensation to build loyalty and keep valued employees. Do it wrong, and you get guys like that who are frustrated and angry.

[michaelochurch]

Most underperformers don't really cause any problems. They work slowly and can't be assigned anything important, but over time the organization can adapt to them. Consequently, nothing really happens to them until there's a general belt-tightening. Usually, because people don't like being dicks and most underperformers aren't disliked, they're rolled into a general layoff and get a severance.

Overperformers, on the other hand, draw attention and animosity. People may say they like change, innovation and creativity. Abstractly, they do. At work, when they're trying to hold position within an organization that would throw them under the bus without hesitation, they hate change (except change that they control) and anything that smells remotely like it might be a challenge to their authority, reputation, or power, no matter how remote that challenge may be.

I'm seriously considering going into consulting, specifically because it's the one employment structure where overperformance isn't catastrophic. The worst result of overperformance is that you automate yourself out of a job, but that usually leads to another, better, one.

If you're an underperformer, you might get laid off in a year or two. You'll typically have a severance or warning because people will still generally like you as long as you're not an asshole.

If you're an overperformer, then unless you have someone powerful who goes out of his way to protect you, you're going to be fired (on a bogus "performance" case where you're set up to fail) in 3 months. You're also probably the type of person who, when served with a PIP despite being one the biggest assets to the company, will go nuclear, create morale-killing spectacles, and be talked about for years afterward. (Not that I know anyone like that...)

Underperformers can move along. With 2-3 years on their resumes, no one asks any questions. Overperformers often blow up spectacularly and develop reputation problems because, even if they're abstractly admirable, they didn't know the rules.

[thrAway0101]

"You're also probably the type of person who, when served with a PIP despite being one the biggest assets to the company, will go nuclear, create morale-killing spectacles, and be talked about for years afterward"

I think Googler's and Xooglers on HN have by now learned to restrain themselves but I've had enough of this troll. I don't know what the actual psychiatric terminology would be but I know what the symptoms are: Toxic levels of cynicism combined with massive delusions of grandeur ("... despite being one the biggest assets to the company..." Hah.). Please note that the company he's talking about is Google where he spent a few months (or perhaps a year or so) in 2010/2011 timeframe. His equally delusional rants on internal mailing lists were stuff of (hilarious) legend. It was clear to any engineer with half a brain who read one of his rants that you don't want this guy anywhere near your team.

I do sympathize if he's suffering from genuine psychiatric issues and needs medical help. Someone close to him needs to help him get the care he needs.

But please, please young hackers, don't pay any heed to his alleged words of wisdom. The world, and especially silicon valley, may not be all cookies and cream... but it's also not the satanic hellscape that you're reading about in these sickening threads. Lots of young people enter this world every year, do their work, get compensated handsomely and treated royally (way better than almost any other profession that a young graduate could find work in today) and live happy, fulfilled lives. I wish a few more voices here would spread a bit of positive news (and down-vote the ever cynical trolls on a regular basis).

[marvin]

I'm usually a big fan of online anonymity, but it seems disingenious to hide behind a throwaway when you are making a personal attack directly at a named person - especially when you are referencing internal events at the company in question.

[yuhong]

I don't believe in everything michaelochurch says, but I do believe there are real problems at Google pointed out by often not just michaelchurch (eg. rachelbythebay, Piaw Na). I believe Vic Gundotra should probably be fired for example.

[michaelochurch]

I wasn't talking about myself, or Google.

I wasn't even on a PIP at Google.

You launched a personal attack on me for no reason. The conclusion I'm left with is that you're probably an asshole.

[michaelt]

  If you're an overperformer, then unless you have someone 
  powerful who goes out of his way to protect you, you're 
  going to be fired in 3 months.

Let's say I am a junior manager at a big corporation, and I notice some of my subordinates are doing a great job.

I was thinking I would put them to work writing good software, delivering business value and generally making my team look good. In the fullness of time, and if they're interested, I would support them for promotion. While I would lose them as programmers, blocking their promotion would not be productive (assuming they're smart enough to notice, which you'd hope high performers would be), and as managers they would add to my political allies in other teams.

How would I benefit from firing them instead?

[nutjob123]

'(on a bogus "performance" case where you're set up to fail) ' Can you elaborate?

[cbhl]

Here's a starting point.

http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/my-name-is-cl...