[Iftheshoefits]

You've identified one of the reasons I hesitate to put myself in the "startup labor market" for any startup that isn't well-funded.

Even well-funded startups give me pause. I'm not interested in putting in founder-like work for entry-level employee-like compensation plus a lottery ticket. Unless the equity is meaningful and imbues the recipient with an actual, real voice in the direction of the company it's just a way to sidestep offering real compensation.

[alexandros]

I'd be loathe to join a company where 10 people have a "real voice in the direction of the company". When you join an early team the only way is to trust the founder(s) as knowing what they're doing and listening to the team when there's a good point being made. The alternative is a recipe for politics from day 1.

[Iftheshoefits]

I wouldn't want to join a 10-founder startup, either. A follow-on to my comment would be that an engineer looking to work at a startup should almost never take options as a part of compensation, and should rarely take actual equity if it isn't sufficient to be on near-equal footing with the other founders' equity. Startups also shouldn't offer such crappy deals. They should pay the market rate, or slightly more because of the inherent risk in being an employee of a startup entails, and forgo the charade of stock grants (in any form).

[davidw]

I work at a small-ish company, and while, no, I don't have a "real voice in the direction of the company", I do have a voice in my corner of things: technical decisions. That makes me significantly happier than showing up and just being told what to use and do.

[karmelapple]

I'm curious: what is "founder-like work" to you? Is it 50–80 hour work weeks? Or does it mean 40 hours but making the initial, architectural decisions of a new piece of software? Serious question.

[Iftheshoefits]

Either.

In the first case, it's unreasonable to put in more than a couple of hours of overtime here and there for even market rate wages at any company, whether it's a startup or not. "Uncompensated (comp time doesn't count) overtime" is a euphemism for "exploitation."

In the second, the employee is effectively creating at least one of the revenue generating engines of the business. He deserves to reap the rewards of his labor. That means more than below-market wages plus "startup bucks"/lottery tickets.

The entire issue, as I see it, can be distilled to this: founders want employees who are taking significant risk, who will work for and treat the business like the founders themselves would, but who considers below-market wages plus "startup bucks" as great compensation, even when it is historically not.

[radicalbyte]

My wife owns a Pharmacy* and works 50-60 hours a week, so I guess that "founder-like" work involves a similar time investment.

* The medical sort, and here in Holland the Pharmacists require the same education as a medical doctor but specializing in pharmaceuticals not diagnosis.

[wprl]

Agreed. I don't work for equity ever... don't feel like gambling with my livelihood.