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by firstOrder 4443 days ago
Marx's argument for the inevitability of extreme wealth disparity and at some point a breakdown in the capitalist system is too long to put here, but I can summarize it somewhat. A worker is creating wealth - why else would a company employ him? Let us say he works as a carpenter for a furniture store. He takes $800 worth of wood, nails etc. every day and through his labor makes it into $1000 worth of desks, cabinets etc. What happens with that $1000 in sales? $800 of it goes to buying wood, nails, hammers etc. for the next day. $200 is left over. Some goes to wages to the worker who created the wealth, some goes to profit to the company owners. Let's say it is split down the middle, $100 each way. If the worker works 10 hours a day, he is creating $20 in worth an hour, but only keeping $10 of that. Or you could say he spends the first five hours a day working for himself, and the next five hours he receives none of his own wealth creation, it is expropriated by the capitalists.

What do the capitalists do with their profit? They invest! They buy more capital. They buy capital equipment so that twice as many cabinets and desks can be manufactured in an hour then before. Now, minus the capital cost, with $2000 worth of desks being made a day, with $1600 of daily costs on materials, and keeping the worker at a wage of $100, the capitalist is making $300 a day once his profits pay off the cost of the capital equipment. So the capital spending means a flood of new commodities.

The question becomes - who buys these new commodities? The worker is not going to be buying more desks - he is not making any more than he did before. So then you have "over-production" - too much over-competition, which is not good for capitalists. Marx believed this, but it is not a notion exclusive to Marx - GE CEO Jack Welch has talked about this, as has Peter Thiel, and others. So you get a situation where it is perceived there is a demand for cloud services - so EC2, Linode, Rackspace etc. fund massive capital funding and get into a price war with each other, and people can buy more and more for less and less. There is a ton of capital out there, and demand is not outrageous, so this happens. The bottom line though is the process of profit to capital to more commodities to more profit to more capital to more commodities can't be endless, especially with the consumers wages stagnating. You can get him to get into credit card debt and home mortgage debt and then pass laws saying he can't get out of certain debt and so forth, but this only kicks the can down the road, and makes the inevitable crash worse.

This in a nutshell is one of Marx's major arguments. It is in a nutshell - he wrote more than three large books on this which are difficult to summarize. Replying to thread to argue with one of Marx's ideas is fine, replying to this post because you found some hole in my incredibly condensed argument would be silly - I'm leaving out dozens of caveats which leaves massive holes in my condensed explanation. I have to leave out those caveats or else I'd have to write tens of thousands of more words.

These are interesting articles, especially the 2008 Marxist interpretation of the financial crisis -

http://monthlyreview.org/2013/03/01/class-war-and-labors-dec...

http://monthlyreview.org/2008/12/01/financial-implosion-and-...

Even if you disagree with the analysis, the data they point to is, I think, interesting. Liberals and moderates talk about wealth inequality, debt, how finance is dominating the real economy etc. They don't talk about the slowdown in real GDP growth, the decline of industrial capacity utilization etc.

2 comments

It's unclear whether the slowdown in US/EU real GDP growth is (a) dysfunction of capitalism, due to what you described, or (b) a "cooling" effect as global inequality of nations (as it should) mean-reverts. The good news is that global GDP growth is quite high: about 4% per year and accelerating (faster than exponential, for now). Obviously, there are severe sustainability concerns (such as the need to move away from planet-baking carbon fuels) that must be addressed. But, if we can address those environmental constraints, the global picture is actually pretty positive.

Worth investigation, however, is what happened in the U.S. in the 1920s. We got really good at agriculture, quickly (i.e. over the course of a few decades). We did a bad job of distributing the wealth generated by that. Commodity prices plummeted as the 1920s wore on. By 1925, there was an epidemic of rural poverty, but those were boom times for the urban rich, so it wasn't called a "depression". In 1927, the economy grew volatile and by 1928 large companies were starting to sweat. The "official" start of the Great Depression was Oct. 1929, and by 1933, the U.S. economy had imploded and the stock market was down almost 90% from its highs.

In the late 1920s, prevailing conservative thought was that poverty was a sort of "moral medicine", because the suffering washed away sin. (It was the same backward, moralistic thinking as was behind Prohibition.) The Depression proved that it's a cancer that spreads relentlessly. If the farmers get poor, the factory workers selling to farmers get poor, and those who have money become risk-averse and hoard it (causing asset crashes) and over time almost everyone ends up losing.

What happened to agricultural commodities in the 1920s is happening to nearly all human labor now. And that's pretty terrifying.

I always like reading historical analysis, but have a few questions:

> We did a bad job of distributing the wealth generated by that.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that those that profited did not reinvest in stocks that may have helped companies grow and provide jobs? Or, that the government did not tax enough to pay its own staff and overhead and then redistribute via programs that do not necessarily target the areas that really need it? Or that they should have given that money to churches and other charities to distribute?

The reason I ask is that there are few pure redistribution models. The closest are some churches and charities, but they typically still have some overhead deducted. The next best can be stock investment, as, depending on the companies, that money is in large part repaid in the form of raises or new jobs. The least efficient is ofter government, because accountability is limited to the % wasted in the process of providing services, unlike capitalism where competition provides accountability; if you do poorly, you don't survive, unless a government bails you out.

> What happened to agricultural commodities in the 1920s is happening to nearly all human labor now. And that's pretty terrifying.

Could you expand on that and provide some references?

In 1920: agriculture was 27% of labor force: http://www.agclassroom.org/gan/timeline/farmers_land.htm

Now, 2-3%. One in 4 people had their profession superseded. A lot of that slack was taken up by industry (and war and death), but that took 20-30 years to catch up.

Is there a pool of work for people to absorb 25% of the present labor force? Most of the emerging technologies I see are labor-saving, not labor consuming.

Two possibilities for big labor demand in the next few decades: - healthcare and assistance for the elderly - removing development restrictions in booming cities, unleashing an epic (or Chinese-level) building boom

Both have fundamental political foundations and won't be solved solely by technology.

> removing development restrictions in booming cities, unleashing an epic (or Chinese-level) building boom

Which would be interesting because it is debatable whether we have the resources for that.

On one hand, we have people like Tim Worstall of Forbes claiming that we will never run out of metals that would be used in a building boom, because innovation reduces and replaces use of existing metals, e.g. modern day pennies use steel and a copper coating:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/15/when-are-...

Although, I think Tim takes a lot of liberty with his assessments, like his recent wild speculation that humanity could never populate another star system because it would take too many people to preserve our culture: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/04/07/perhaps-c...

On the other hand, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore#Available_iron_ore_res... it states that Lester Brown of the Worldwatch Institute has suggested iron ore could run out within 64 years based on an extremely conservative extrapolation of 2% growth per year, and so if there were a boom, innovation to replace use of iron ore as a structural component would be required.

What it seems is that Marx view is extremely simplistic

Marx is saying: worker produces X value and is payed Y, and since Y < X, bosses are evil, capitalism is evil, blah blah blah

Well, to begin with, the situation where X < Y is fatal to a company. So it's never going to happen (theoretically)

So X - Y, is what? Pure profit in bosses pocket? Not really...

It's the cost of everything needed for the company and for the worker to do their job

It's the job security (even a tiny one like in some states in the US)

Yes, whatever is left is the profit, and a small profit times the number of employees is the profit of the company, and if someone thinks it's unfair they're welcome to start their own company and compete (which is why cartels, oligopolies, monopolies are so damaging)

> Marx is saying...bosses are evil, capitalism is evil

Actually Marx said capitalism was a positive historic development.

> So X - Y, is what? Pure profit in bosses pocket? Not really...It's the cost of everything needed for the company and for the worker to do their job

When I said...

>> What happens with that $1000 in sales? $800 of it goes to buying wood, nails, hammers etc.

...that is what I was covering.

> cartels, oligopolies, monopolies are so damaging

Marx goes into cartels, oligopolies, and monopolies a little bit, but they didn't really hit their stride until after he died. Lenin is who covers this in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. They both go into great detail of why it is economically and politically impossible to stop cartels, oligopolies, and monopolies from forming. Lenin mentions Standard Oil in his paper, which the government tried to break up in 1911. As Lenin knew then, it is impossible to stop monopolies, which is why the old broken up parts of Standard Oil reformed in the 1999 ExxonMobil merger to become the most profitable company in the world, as well as the company with the third largest revenue in the world. And I can go on and on about how government can't break up monopolies (the Bell breakup only lasted a few years, now AT&T and Verizon control most of the US wired last mile and wireless).

>>>> What happens with that $1000 in sales? $800 of it goes to buying wood, nails, hammers etc.

>>...that is what I was covering.

But the cost of materials is one thing (and not related to the employees), the value added by the company, another.

>> And I can go on and on about how government can't break up monopolies

Cue the communist states creating the biggest and most useless ones.

> Cue the communist states creating the biggest and most useless ones.

Communism wasn't Marxism. Marxism has the probably even-bigger flaw of being completely impossible to put into practice in the real world.

That's the problem with the genius of Marx. He was able to quite convincingly deconstruct the issues with capitalism, without being able to recommend a better replacement that could survive first contact with the masses.