[pedrocr]

>PKCS#11 already exists, is already supported by software and hardware vendors

It's apparently not supported by Apache/nginx nor does a suitable software-HSM exist to use it, so you're basically writing both ends of the communication. But if you do go with a separate daemon PKCS#11 may very well be a good solution. I just think forking off a process yourself is much cleaner for the use case of securing a web server.

[teacup50]

> It's apparently not supported by Apache/nginx nor does a suitable software-HSM exist to use it, so you're basically writing both ends of the communication.

Apache/nginx don't have to support pkcs11, they just need to support the use of existing crypto libraries that already support pkcs11:

http://www.gnutls.org/manual/html_node/Using-a-PKCS11-token-...

If a server uses gnutls and passes the user-supplied filename directly to gnutls_certificate_set_x509_key_file2(), a PKCS#11 URL can be used directly without changes to the server.

> I just think forking off a process yourself is much cleaner for the use case of securing a web server.

It's something that everyone has to write for every server; people will get it wrong. Additionally, there's no support for hardware modules or plugging in new software security modules, so you'd be starting with a handicapped solution.

[pedrocr]

>Apache/nginx don't have to support pkcs11, they just need to support the use of existing crypto libraries that already support pkcs11

Fine you get Apache->SSLLib->PKCS#11. Now you need to write a PKCS#11 compliant library to talk to your HSM, and a custom serialization protocol for that communication anyway.

>It's something that everyone has to write for every server; people will get it wrong. Additionally, there's no support for hardware modules or plugging in new software security modules, so you'd be starting with a handicapped solution.

If we're worried about http servers it's basically apache/nginx. As I mentioned in another comment if apache/nginx implement this directly most users will get it by default. If they implement it with a separately configured daemon only very security conscious people will do it. So if your objective is preventing the most dangerous bugs in the most exposed daemons (and HTTPS tends to be that) in the most number of cases doing this directly by default in those two servers seems like a better solution. That doesn't stop you from also doing the other option to support actual HSMs and other fancy 1% cases.

[teacup50]

> Fine you get Apache->SSLLib->PKCS#11. Now you need to write a PKCS#11 compliant library to talk to your HSM, and a custom serialization protocol for that communication anyway.

HSM modules already have PKCS#11 drivers, because it's a standard, and that means they work readily with existing software and cover the requisite industry use-cases.

You're proposing taking web servers in a different direction simply because you find the general, widely supported solution to be antithetical to your tastes?

Unless you're actually going to write code here, I don't really understand why you care, or why you're advocating ignoring hard-won wisdom and experience that's encoded in a decent spec, just because you don't think you'll like it.

[pedrocr]

>HSM modules already have PKCS#11 drivers, because it's a standard, and that means they work readily with existing software and cover the requisite industry use-cases.

The OP isn't talking about using an actual HSM, but using a new software based daemon to do the HSM role just so the crypto calculations (and the key) aren't in the webserver's address space. He confirms that he is indeed trying to write the PKCS#11 driver himself. Just using the existing crypto code in Apache/nginx but moving it into a separate process seems much cleaner to me and has the one feature this suggestion doesn't, it works with existing config files without modification so will be used much more widely. That's all I am saying.

[teacup50]

A PKCS#11 driver can simply fork() itself to operate out-of-process, without implementing some sort of heavyweight daemon.

Apache could ship a fall-back PKCS#11 driver implementation that did this, transparently.

[pedrocr]

>A PKCS#11 driver can simply fork() itself to operate out-of-process, without implementing some sort of heavyweight daemon.

The OPs proposal was for a daemon so it could be run as a different user. My suggestion was indeed to fork and figure out how to isolate the process (as forking may not be enough if you have permissions to do things like ptrace processes running under the same user).

>Apache could ship a fall-back PKCS#11 driver implementation that did this, transparently.

What you are proposing then is something different. It's to make the only crypto code path the PKCS#11 one and then make the normal case the special case of that. So you are going Apache->Gnutls/OpenSSL->custom PKCS#11 driver->fork->Gnutls/OpenSSL(to actually do the crypto). Since apache already has working code for the first and last steps you could just do Apache->fork->Gnutls/OpenSSL and be done with it. Your suggestion adds more complexity but improves the support for other more exotic PKCS#11 providers.

[remosi]

There are several softhsm's, they just share the address space with your frontline daemon which (IMHO) defeats the purpose.

While webserver's support for PKCS#11 is annoying, it's well supported by lots and lots of other stuff (usually client side stuff like ssh, browsers etc tho). You can get webservers to do PKCS#11 today, there are docs on how to do it. They usually start with "download the source, and run configure with this pile of options."

[pedrocr]

Isn't that just because PKCS#11 is an in-process API so not really meant for calls over a socket? So wouldn't you need to actually write a PKCS#11 compliant library to plug into the server, a software HSM and then some form of serializing protocol to talk between the two? Or is there a standard way to do PKCS#11 over a socket? A quick look at the spec made it look like a "here's how our struct's are packed" kind of standard.

[remosi]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. I'm currently trying to figure out if dbus could be that serialisation since it takes care of a reasonable amount of the hard work for you. But I'm no expert on GObject, so slow going. (Also, I'm not sure that I'm the best person to be writing this... I don't really have that much security knowledge, I just spent a whole pile of time trying to figure out how to secure my (client) keys recently and wondered why we didn't do something sensible for server keys.

[pedrocr]

In that case why not skip the middle man and just implement enough soft-HSM for whatever Apache/nginx needs with a simple serialization protocol just for that? Emulating all of PKCS#11 sounds like a chore for very little gain.

[remosi]

Having looked at PKCS#11, I'm not sure what bits you could get away with not implementing. It does have functions for things like "get random bytes", which I guess you might not want, but that's just barely any code: (int get_random_bytes() { return CKR_NOT_SUPPORTED; }).

All the complexity in this proposal is the serialisation/deserialisation which is about the same amount of work if it's pkcs#11 or some custom thing.

Custom API: Pro: Marginally simpler to implement. Pro: If the webserver fork()'s it by default, then more users get the benefit for the case that you can read the webserver memory. Con: Doesn't protect against attacks that can read files readably by the webserver. Con: Becomes complicated when you want to move to a real HSM. Con: Isn't reusable between webservers, let alone for your mail server, xmpp server, webbrowsers, ssh clients and so on.

Using PKCS#11: Pro: Can start with a PKCS#11 softhsm running as a seperate user today, migrate to hardware HSM with little change tomorrow. Pro: Reusable across multiple webservers, already usable by browsers and ssh clients. Pro: A well defined, maintained, open standard with a wide variety of implementations that already exist. Con: Slightly more complex than a custom protocol, but I'd argue that the custom protocol would grow to cover at least what PKCS#11 supports. I'm currently investigating using dbus for the protocol, so serialisation/deserialisation is mostly taken care of.

Am I missing some Pro for a custom protocol?

[pedrocr]

>Con: Doesn't protect against attacks that can read files readably by the webserver.

This isn't a con for the custom API, it's a con for a forking solution instead of a serialization between two different users.

If PKCS#11 is indeed a good fit for that protocol then it's indeed a much better solution that something custom for the reasons you mention. Good luck with the implementation.