[stephenr]

> To things like history of Crimea or its geographical location, for example?

If history and geography trump the current citizens and laws, then the yanks should all fuck off back where they came from and leave it to the native americans and the mexicans, no?

> Have you though?

Enough to realise that something is fishy.

Russian troops invaded crimea, surrounded the Ukrainian military bases, and then declared it was all "legit" because a referendum had 96% voting in favour of joining Russia, despite polls from previous years showing 34% support.

All but 2 members of the UN Security Council voted to declare the referendum invalid - it was only defeated because Russia has veto power.

Your argument is that Russia doesn't get anything out of this. Like Putin is a completely rational guy who does shit because it makes sense, rather than because he's a whack job who pines for the "glory" of the USSR.

[dragonwriter]

> If history and geography trump the current citizens and laws, then the yanks should all fuck off back where they came from and leave it to the native americans and the mexicans, no?

Just the former. Because, you know, the latter, inasmuch as they are distinct from the former, have the same problem as "the yanks".

[stephenr]

You're saying the current day USA-Mexico border is the limit of where any pre-columbian Mexicans ever inhabited?

[dragonwriter]

I'm saying that "Mexican" isn't a meaningful description of any group of people that existed before the Spanish conquest.

[stephenr]

The people who inhabited what is modern day mexico.

before colonisation the native americans weren't called native americans or indians but that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

[eps]

> despite polls from previous years showing 34% support.

Link? Crimea has always been pro-Russian, to the extreme.

[stephenr]

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/crimea-referendum-34-percent-n...

[eps]

Yeah, that's just some guy on US government payroll pulling numbers from thin air and an Ukrainian politician quoting some other guy who said this and that. That's not "polls from previous years showing 34% support" as you put it.

[stephenr]

Just some guy.. who happened to be Putin's economic advisor for 5 years.

[eps]

... who's now on US payroll.

Bottom line is that Crimea is massively pro-Russian. Unlike you I've actually been there multiple times and have friends who still live there. The overall sentiment has always been that Khrushev was an idiot to detach Crimea from Russia and "gift" it to Ukraine in the 50s. That 97% looks pretty damn close to the reality. If you are interested in this, take a look at BBC coverage of the referendum. The turnout and voting numbers were in fact all legit and no one was going to the voting booths under a gunpoint.

[stephenr]

> If you are interested in this, take a look at BBC coverage of the referendum

They quoted a single woman who claimed the Ukrainian government are nazis. Sounds legit.

> have friends who still live there. The overall sentiment

I lived in Australia for 29 years and everyone I know thinks Tony Abbot is a fucking idiot, so he must have rigged the election, right? How many of the 2 million Crimean people do you know well enough to have had discussions about their thoughts on Russia? Anything over a million and you're probably safe.

> The turnout and voting numbers were in fact all legit and no one was going to the voting booths under a gunpoint.

a) facts have to be proven. b) who says you need a gun to rig a poll?

Apart from being illegal according to their own constitution, the referendum gave no option to maintain the status quo - only to become part of Russia, or to become independent. That sounds amazingly legit.

A Russian citizen in Crimea on a one year visa was allowed to vote, which is illegal. There are confirmed reports of people having their identification confiscated before they could vote.

Add to this - Russia invited "observers" to validate the legitimacy of the vote. The leader of the group invited to observe is a Neo Nazi and Adolf Hitler admirer. The "observers" from the group were a Frenchman, a Spaniard and a Hungarian. All three are former members of neo-Nazi parties, and currently members of far-right-wing political parties. Still legit though right?

And of course every country on the UN security council except China and Russia must be just saying it's illegal and illegitimate for shits and giggles, not because of any evidence.