[lugg]

Security by obscurity is also, arguably, a good thing by your logic.

Seeing as someone didn't get it... Security by diversity is secure in the same way something is secure by obscurity. In other words, its not, its just harder to find the insecurity.

[belorn]

Security by diversity means that any extreme rare vulnerability will only hit a few individuals. The trade is that there will be more unique vulnerabilities found.

In risk management, having risk spread out is general a favored tactic. Same is true in biology. The chance that remote memory access vulnerability is so rare, that 200 libraries (if equally used) would lower the effected number of people with a factor of almost 200.

[lugg]

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here. I just dont understand how that is different from obscuring your attack surface making you less likely to be targeted by some sort of mass generic attack vector.

Nobody argues security through obscurity doesn't work in some form, we argue that it doesn't make you secure as a matter of fact. Much like using some obscure SSL implementation. It sure does have the net effect of making you less likely to fall victim but that isn't security that is obscurity.

[bch]

It's not about "obscure SSL implementations", it's "alternative implementations", and letting different projects theoretically play off each others strengths and mitigating consumer risk similar to investing in an index or mutual fund rather than all-in with any single entity.

Also, there's nothing wrong with security through obscurity, but please don't let that be your only security.

[lugg]

As someone else has already pointed out that could be better classified as risk management than the way I originally put it.

The problem with security through obscurity is that it is not security. Kind of what people mean when they bring it up.. At least in my circles anyway.

It is fine to have security through obscurity but you can't, much like the alternative implementation scenario claim it makes you more secure as a result. Its exactly like when apple claimed they were more secure and couldnt get viruses like their PC counterparts.

That is what I was trying to bring to the conversation when I made my first post. I get the feeling were starting to move off topic / split hairs over words now so I'm going to leave it at that I dont think I can explain myself any further.

[bch]

> The problem with security through obscurity is that it is not security.

I'm sure we'd like each other if we sat down over coffee, and would find more in common than, not, but I have to politely disagree with you here. It does offer a degree of security, and I can give you a challenge that is measurably testable:

Move your sshd from 22 -> (eg) 222, and watch the hack attempts disappear.

Now, in the context of "remote logins", moving telnet from 23 -> 223 offers a _degree_ of security from a casual person connecting to port 23 and trying their luck, but we all know that telnet is a poor remote access tool these days. Switching from telnet to ssh is security by technology (encryption, mechanism (ie: keys vs passwords)). Moving sshd from port 22 -> 223 keeps that many more people from knocking on the door, no matter what other security is setup. "Security by Obscurity" adds to "Proper" security.

Surely we're both on the same page that, given better options, security solely through obscurity is stupid.

[aranjedeath]

Then you're advocating risk management, and not security.

[belorn]

Risk management and security is two sides of the same coin.

Lets make an analogy of an investor. If person invest in a single company and it goes bankrupt, the investors might loose his roof over his head and the food on the table. This in turn effects his personal security.

In order to mitigate this risk, he uses risk management to diversify his risks. He might not be able to spend the same amount of time per investment and this increasing the general risk, but high risk events like bankruptcy is spread out and is unlikely to cause a large impact.

[rabino]

It's not harder to find the insecurity. At all.

It's harder to get a generic exploit that will give you access to a lot of targets. But I'd argue that finding an exploit for a particular target would be easier.