[briantakita]

> You and everyone else I've asked this question to seem to dance around it. How is this any different than supporting any other kind of anti-equality thing?

He has not said anything hateful.

In many ways, I think his opinion is not conducive to equality. In fact, the notion of marriage is unequal. It's unequal to people who don't want to get married or are polyamorous. Also, there are many natural inequalities. There are many gray areas. Also, everybody has prejudices and promote inequality in some contexts.

However, just because someone has an opinion of inequality, doesn't mean he should be the target of a smear campaign.

Tolerance is important.

> Rejecting intolerance is the first step.

That's why I'm rejecting the gay rights movement's online bullying tactics. You don't get a free pass just because you were an oppressed minority in the past.

> Which holds about as much water as "sorry you were offended" in my book.

He said he is sorry he caused pain. He admitted to causing the pain and apologized for that. He did not turn the blame around to say your perception is wrong.

He is the target of your hate. Let go of your hate. Hate is the dark side...

> I have no problem what-so-ever castigating someone for bad behavior if it's actually proven that they did engage in bad behavior.

It's not proven that he behaved badly. Also, who is the proper judge of this? The mob always feels like they are the right judge. The mob always feels justified. How else could the mob justify the bad things that mobs do to their victims?

> you're mis-framing Eich's action as if it were a mere opinion or thought that crossed his mind one day

Have a rational dialog about this. Express how much pain Prop 8 caused. Express why this is an inequality & how that affects you. Don't act with vengeance.

That is why Martin Luther King & Ghandi were successful. They did not act like their oppressors. They had the moral high ground. If they acted with vengeance, equality would not be as far as it is today.

[Karunamon]

He has not said anything hateful.

No, he just gave them money. Given the choice, I'd rather he stand outside of Mozilla's corporate office holding an allcaps sign covered in slurs ala Westboro Baptist than financially support them. At least his personal actions don't contribute to further oppression in that case.

doesn't mean he should be the target of a smear campaign

What smear campaign? Every criticism of Eich that I've both read and given focuses on 3 objective and concrete things.

1. He donated money to a group that can be charitably described as a "hate group". This alone wouldn't be so bad, but:

2. He had a chance to walk that back, say that he changed his mind, say that was a long time ago, and did not. In fact, he quit his job rather than do so. Which leads into:

3. He poorly handled this entire event, which calls his credentials for being a CEO in the first place into question.

That's not a smear campaign by any conceivable definition of the words.

That's why I'm rejecting the gay rights movement's online bullying tactics.

Again, 3 facts. Not opinions, facts. Facts cannot be bullying, else any critical analysis of something important to a person becomes "bullying".

He did not turn the blame around to say your perception is wrong.

He went well out of his way to avoid directly confronting anything that would have confirmed or denied this verbally. But, his actions did that for us.

He is the target of your hate

I appreciate your zen, but I do not hate Eich. I think he was a poor choice for CEO and is a hypocrite. He's not someone I'd care to work with or under since he demonstrably dislikes me for who I am, having never met me.

That is not hate. If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech".

It's not proven that he behaved badly

Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? This is a matter of public record.

Express how much pain Prop 8 caused. Express why this is an inequality & how that affects you. Don't act with vengeance

Which I've gone well out of my way to do. Yet somehow, just be repeating facts about Eich's observable actions, I am acting with "hate" and "vengeance".

Sorry, but I do not see it.

[briantakita]

> Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"?

Prop 8 is a proposition, not a hate group. This redefinition is scary and files a "hate group" as being anyone who disagrees with your position.

Supporting a proposition is his right and it is ok. I don't see his intent as being hateful. Ignorant, but not hate.

> If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech".

That sounds like you hate me now. It also sounds like you hate freedom, sorry to say. I'm aware of the cliché, but you said it.

Funny how the moderates are targeted by extremists.

---

I'm getting into activism myself, so I understand how important this is to you.

All I can say is keep your humanity & honor in the process. Your movement will be better off.

[Karunamon]

The political organization that's behind Prop 8 (the people that Eich donated to, since you can't donate to a bill) quacks like a hate group in a number of ways, not least of which is they dehumanize and make fun of LGBTs.

If you have not already, please view that slate.com link I sent you a couple posts ago. You can ignore the text there as it's basically what I've been saying here verbatim, but I would ask you to pay special attention to the videos - they are actual ads that the group put together and which actually aired in California.

Maybe then you'll see why I apply this label - I didn't just arbitrarily dredge it up as the worst possible thing I could think of to call them.

>That sounds like you hate me now.

I find it very puzzling that you say I am practicing all this hatred by saying I find Eich's actions repugnant, and now you're saying I'm practicing hatred toward you by simply having a (remarkably civil and productive) discussion with you.

Yet Eich is the guy who wants people to be second class citizens.

Does. Not. Compute.

[scintill76]

This article[0]?

My response is that Eich didn't personally approve these ads, and may have had no way of possibly knowing what his money would actually fund. (I'd be interested in evidence about the visibility of any prior work, the timing of his donation, etc., though.)

If you find simply supporting the idea repugnant, sure, but then arguments like "he donated to a hate group" and Slate's "The Campaign for Prop 8 Was Unprecedentedly Cruel" aren't really necessary. If they pushed a law that is hateful to the core, it's less relevant how hateful or not the group itself was.

I suppose if he did see and regret the ads, he could have said so, but AFAIK has said nothing. Then again, he probably felt that doing anything other than a long thorough apology, donating to pro-gay-marriage groups, crying for forgiveness, etc., would dig the hole deeper.

[0] http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_s...

[briantakita]

> I find it very puzzling that you say I am practicing all this hatred by saying I find Eich's actions repugnant

> If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech".

I'm saying Eich freedom is being violated. I'm just repeating what you said and referring to your "vitriol".

I understand where you are coming from. However, it's easy to misconstrue a position that someone took. Notice I used some weasel words such as "it sounds like". I could misconstrue your statement as you hating me.

I believe that Eich's support & position is being misconstrued. He should be able to express the reasons for his support without fear of reprisal. I would not be surprised if he & his family were harassed, as harassment seems to accompany such emotionally charged situations. I would be fearful if I were publicly targeted like that. Even if you are right, you never bully people into agreeing with your position.

I watched the commercials. The last one is ridiculous, since the couple should have answered that marriage is about love and not necessarily about having children. However, none of the commercials struck me as overtly discriminatory. The one with the two princesses, is somewhat discriminatory; However the position of parents (with religious convictions) should have control over their children's education at least deserved some consideration. To a parent, it coercive to (without warning), teach a child something that they disagree with.

The ads expressed some legitimate concerns that should be addressed. There was even a point where someone was afraid that people's jobs would be targeted for their beliefs. Obviously that fear is well founded.

I'm failing to see how this is a hate group. I believe some of the Prop 8 supporters were bigots, however, the campaign itself does not seem like it is based on hate.

I fail to see how Eich is an aware supporter of hate groups.

[Karunamon]

I'm saying Eich freedom is being violated

But it simply isn't. First, consider the fact that he chose to step down. He wasn't booted out by Mozilla.

Secondly, You have no entitlement, legally or morally to any particular job with any particular company. Eich is free to support any cause he wants, and everyone else is free to react to that how they want.

That's freedom of speech - plain and simple. This same noise was made when A&E chose to (temporarily) end their contract with one of the stars of Duck Dynasty over his public comments in a magazine - again, no freedom being violated. That person was free to make whatever comments he wanted, and everyone else is free to criticize those comments, and the company in question is free to conduct their business operations in accordance with whatever contract law.

Freedom of speech does not, and never has meant, freedom from criticism/repercussions. This is the system working as intended.

I believe that Eich's support & position is being misconstrued

How so? In what other circumstances does one donate to any cause, go out of their way to avoid directly addressing concerns with said donation, and eventually quit their jobs rather than address those concerns?

That's not misconstruing, that's basic logical induction. If you have another plausible theory, I'd love to hear it.

He should be able to express the reasons for his support without fear of reprisal.

Again, freedom of speech != freedom from criticism. You do not have the right to say anything and never be challenged for it. You do have the right to say whatever you please and not have the government take some action against you.

However, none of the commercials struck me as overtly discriminatory.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. I find them to be offensive, inaccurate, hateful fear-mongering. Partially because they target me personally.

Hate doesn't necessarily imply violence or the threat thereof.

The campaign itself does not seem like it is based on hate.

Then what is it based on?

[briantakita]

> But it simply isn't. First, consider the fact that he chose to step down. He wasn't booted out by Mozilla.

He stepped down under enormous political pressure. Also, OK Cupid had a campaign against Firefox, not Eich. Firefox's brand was being hurt. At that point, he did the honorable thing under such attack, which was to step down.

> You have no entitlement

Does that mean discrimination is ok? If we have no entitlement, than someone can fire another for being black, gay, a woman, a member of a religion, a political outlook? At what point does the attacking stop? Why does being gay give you more protection than having a private ideology where nobody is hurt by you?

> In what other circumstances does one donate to any cause, go out of their way to avoid directly addressing concerns with said donation, and eventually quit their jobs rather than address those concerns?

When no matter what you say, you are going to get backlash. He said he does not want to be coerced into changing his opinion. That is his right. I think his is also right to have that opinion. He also deserves respect, like any other human.

> That's not misconstruing, that's basic logical induction. If you have another plausible theory, I'd love to hear it.

First of all, attacking others solely based on our "theories" is a "preemtive strike". It's an unprovoked assault. You don't know the truth. You are only speculating. This speculation has grown rampant. No matter what Eich does, he will be criticized. There is no way for him to win. That's the nature of mob mentality.

My theory is he & his family were being harassed from this. People usually start receiving death threats & other drama that causes unhappiness & suffering. I also think he didn't appreciate the group coercion to change his stance on an issue. Coercion is bad. Sometimes, a job is not worth that drama.

> You do not have the right to say anything and never be challenged for it

Challenging is fine. However, it should be done with respect of the person. Having manipulative press activity is not fine. Having a mob mentality is not fine. It's legal, but it's also not conducive to a tolerant society.

> I find them to be offensive, inaccurate, hateful fear-mongering. Partially because they target me personally.

I didn't see any targeting. The ads never said "homosexuality is wrong" nor did they attack homosexuals. The last ad had some questionable premises, however it was obviously ridiculous from a moderate's perspective.

They were mainly appealing to people's autonomy, respecting moral stances on this issue, and protecting people's careers for having a certain stance. Yes, even intolerant people should be able to have work. Aren't we all a little intolerant? I understand that you are persecuted. I'm also persecuted in some areas of my life. Everyone is persecuted to some degree. We need to remove the persecution. If we can reduce or remove this societal issue, then people change in positive ways.

Politics is never black & white. Prop 8 has positions & a constituency. Even if it does not pass, popular support brings leverage on related issues.

> The campaign itself does not seem like it is based on hate. > Then what is it based on?

It's not based on one thing. There are a number of motivations for Prop 8. Some people are motivated by hate. Some people have legitimate issues. I think most supports don't approach it from a standpoint of hate.

Eich did not seem like a hateful person. He never spoke out publicly against homosexuals. His campaign donation is not speech. It was meant to be private.

I'm for making campaign contribution public. However, we should also be responsible & not jump to conclusions about supporters of a campaign. Maybe it's evidence. However, it's not proof of anything.

If Eich openly discriminated against homosexuals, that's one thing. However, supporting a Proposition is not proof.

The notion that Prop 8 is H8, is conjecture & a political campaign in itself. It's a redefinition that you obviously buy into. I was a supporter, but now I'm not because it seems to give people license to demonize Prop 8 supporters (without any other evidence of discrimination). I disagree & I think it's dangerous to our culture & it's dangerous to Progressive movements. This demonization is against the progressive ideal of tolerance & intelligent discussion.

Also, the tone of justifiers of this demonization seems off. I'm often a contrarian & think differently from the crowd. The force of this justification reminds me of how groups will force individuals to change & to stop thinking independently or face ostracization. Ostracization is a powerful force. It's has a strong psychological influence on someone's well being & happiness. People are often more afraid of ostracization than death.