[natasham25]

I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.

This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.

The first time I went to a normal Rails meetup - with majority guys - there were two guys having a pissing contest about whether ERB is better than HAML, and then another guy was apologizing to me for the two guys being "so technical".

In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.

[lutusp]

> I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.

All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?

Gender equality doesn't mean two colonies, one of men and another of women. It means one society composed of men and women. Or am I wrong about that?

> I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.

Yes, understood. That's why men go to meetings where only men are present -- same reasoning, same outcome.

> In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.

I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?

I ask this in all sincerity, without judgment or rancor -- do you want a society in which men and women pay attention only to their own instincts and needs, and make no effort to construct a society composed of both men and women?

[natasham25]

> But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?

Keep in mind this will be her first experience actually programming. I created an iOS app with her - she drew everything an did the voice overs - but hasn't programmed at all.

I want her to get so excited about coding and making something, that she sticks with it. If she's scared away by her first experience, as many women are, there will continue to be a pretty big inequality in tech.

That's why programs like these are so important. I stick with it because I LOVE what I do now and have the confidence and knowledge to stand up to my coworkers, etc - but it took a lot to get to this point. Having safe support in the early stages is critical.

> I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?

I work with men all day. I also go to meetups where there are men - going to one tonight b/c there is a great speaker and I will not miss out on the opportunity only because there are men at the meetup. Also going to a tech conference later this month, where there will be men.

However, going to these events takes a lot of effort and work for me - I have to deal with people not taking me seriously, guys potentially hitting on me, having to prove myself, etc. Would be great if guys made some effort too, but most don't. I can only tolerate so much of it.

That said, again, if there is a safe space for women to learn together and discuss issues they're facing, they're more likely to stay in the industry, which makes a more equal society of women and men. And as more women work with men in tech as programmers, the more men learn to tolerate and work with women. As more women are supported by other women, we will venture out and go to the normal meetups, but the women who code meetups are a great safe environment to get started with and keep as a support network throughout our careers.

[10098]

> I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.

Well, wouldn't having 15-16 year old girls around be distracting and counterproductive for boys? Also, how do those poor kids manage to learn anything in schools? It must be super difficult for them, having all those other kids of the opposite gender around. Maybe we should bring back the whole separate schools for boys and girls thing.

[draker]

Did you make your feelings and experience known to the organizers of the normal Rails meetup?

I say this because everyone should have a "safe and welcoming environment" and it is the failure of that meetup to provide that for everyone. They should look at ways they can make the meetup more friendly for all people whether men/women, beginner/expert etc.

Maybe a man attending the same night would have the same experience and feelings, and he doesn't have the option to attend the only women meetups.

[natasham25]

Good point - I wish I had the confidence back then to say something. Instead, I just left and never went back. A few months later, I switched to iOS.