[jmct]

Yes, we get it. 'Europe' and countries within Europe are not the same thing. You are missing the point. Yes, this article only talks about the UK, but Europe generally has a problem with free speech.

The following countries have laws against hate speech:

Belgium@: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Anti-Racism_Law

Denmark: http://www.inach.net/content/denmark.html

Finland: (sorry, could only find PDF) http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Expression/ICCPR/State...

France@: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_France

Germany@: http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm#130

Iceland: (Art 233) http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=190914#LinkT...

Netherlands: http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0001854/TweedeBoek/TitelV/Arti...

Norway: (135 a) http://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/1902-05-22-10/KAPITTEL_2-6...

Sweden: (PDF Ch. 16 sec. 8) http://www.government.se/content/1/c4/15/36/d74ceabc.pdf In case you don't want to read that far "sentenced for agitation against a national or ethnic group to imprisonment for at most two years"

UK: See article.

The countries with an '@' are ones that also ban certain kinds of denial (usually Holocaust denial).

Note it is very likely that more countries in Europe have bans on free speech, these are just the ones I know of and could get sources for quickly.

On top of that, your point "Europe (as a political entity) has only generally positive things to say about freedom of speech" is only accurate if you don't take freedom of speech seriously. The European Convention on Human Rights AND the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union says it is up to the countries whether hate speech counts as free speech! Which misses the entire point of free speech, that no one is able to say what is and is not okay speech!

I live in the UK and the things that upsets me most is the lack of free speech here. There seem to be far too few countries that take it seriously.

So yes, I think it is fair to say Europe has a problem with free speech.

[sentenza]

(Warning: Post contains expletives as part of an anecdote.)

About 15 years ago I turned on the TV one day, zapped to the music channel and was faced, all of a sudden, with the face of Kid Rock.

He was talking to some sort of host on the German channel when the following interchange happened:

Kid Rock: You mean I can say anything?!?

Host: Yes!

Kid Rock: Anything at all?

Host: Yes!

Kid Rock: Ok, here it goes. Pussy-licking finger-fucking ho-ass cunt.

And then he smiles as if it's his fifth birthday. Indeed, in the US, you can't say these things on TV if it is a live transmission and they will be beeped in a recording. Even today, it's always funny to see American celebrities on British panel-comedy shows being startled by the nonchalant usage of coarse language.

That's also a regulation of speech on the airwaves. Granted, it's organized by private entities (or is there a law?) but the effect is the same.

Now contrast that with the limitations of free speech here in Germany: While I'm no friend of hate-speech laws in general, I must say that the one we have in Germany served us very well. The only thing that is banned are the Nazi party symbols and the general patterns connected with it (Holocaust-denialism, preaching against a minority, that sort of thing) and it has been an effective tool to counter any resurgence of "The Nazis 2".

Because, as most non-Germans are most likely unaware, Neo-Nazi groups have been actively trying to gain a foothold in youth culture here for a very long time. I can distinctly remember the knuckleheads that tried to distribute "those" tapes/CDs back in school.

Of course having the "illegal" tapes was enough to radicalize some, but they never could organize on any scale, since any organization or music group that attracted too big a following was rapidly banned.

Weighing the good and the bad consequences of our German law comes IMO very much out on the positive side. And no, there has been no feature creep, even though the law is decades old.

Beeping the potty-mouth on the other hand is just off-balance.

[jmct]

I think you have good points, I do think you're introducing a false dichotomy though.

I'd prefer if there were no censorship on TV and there was guaranteed freedom of speech.

I can definitely understand where you're coming from (in as much as any non-German can understand), but I do wonder if it's possible to allow hate speech and to fight it in other ways.

Maybe not, but I do think it's an ideal to strive for.

Also, when it comes to US TV, it depends on the channel and whether it's using public bandwidth. Channels like HBO and Showtime don't have to censor anything. But overall I think you're right, the US does have this strange Puritan culture that seems to be in conflict with its idea of personal freedoms.

You say that you aren't a fan of hate-speech laws in general. May I ask where you think the line is? I feel like it's incredibly difficult to define what's appropriate without leeway for abuse.

I am often envious of how good Germany (as a country/government) is about keeping things within the spirit of the law and being reasonable about how things are implemented. The efficiency of the German bureaucracy is a good example: You tend to see less waste and corruption than in other western countries.

So with that in mind, it's sometimes hard to use Germany as the standard since they set the bar too high for the rest of us!

[sentenza]

I must assure you that there are wasteful and overly bureaucratic processes here too, but thanks for the compliment.

The key, I think, is that one has to picture "the state" as non-static and plan accordingly. For instance, we have a court system, with the energetic and powerful Federal Court at the top, which is set up in such a way that it inherently favors human rights and freedoms above other concerns. So while the hard core of the Volksverhetzungs-laws remains un-touched, eventual feature creep is rapidly cut back by the court system.

This was designed into the German state, since there was acute awareness at the time that the laws of the Weimar Republic which could be used to curtail freedoms were instrumental in the rapid rise of the Nazi party.

It might well be that, without this process in place, free speech would slowly erode throught this law.