[toomuchtodo]

> the ones who don't have a degree but got a job have been through some sort of selection filter

Very true. Its all about signaling (hence "or equivalent experience" although I believe that to be bullshit; each year of experience should count as 2-3 years in school).

I have no college education, and dropped out of high school in 1999/2000 to pursue my career. I had to sell myself hard to get in the door, but once there, I've never been asked for a degree after my first job (junior admin->senior admin->built/sold webhosting company->managed hosting division for consulting company->data taking for LHC->director of technology->news network startup).

I don't think I'll see it in my lifetime where companies value experience more than a piece of paper when the amount of experience is <5 years. The whole education process, at least for the technology field, should be revamped towards apprenticeship.

[rjbwork]

>The whole education process, at least for the technology field, should be revamped towards apprenticeship.

Disagree, at least in the case of developers, and possibly ops/sysadmins. I simply don't want to work with people who don't understand the basic underpinnings of our work. I expect my co-workers to understand things like the relational model and relation algebra/calculus, SQL, OOP, DRY, writing reusable libraries, the OSI stack/model, some basic data structure/algorithms (trees, searches/sorts, graphs, Djikstra's algo, TFIDF, etc), complexity analysis, some basic design patterns (pub/sub, consumer/producer, MVC, DI/IOC, and various other Computer Science and Software Engineering concepts. I haven't learned the most abstract stuff in my time in industry thus far, and I certainly don't think most devs/engineers have either. We learn things like frameworks, languages, platforms, and sometimes a design pattern here or there, but the basic underpinnings were all learned under formal study in a university CS (and sometimes math) program.

In the end though, maybe this is just my subconscious "elitist CS grad that wants to believe his time in university was worth it and well spent" speaking.

[unschooledkid]

> algebra/calculus, SQL, OOP, DRY, writing reusable libraries, the OSI stack/model, some basic data structure/algorithms (trees, searches/sorts, graphs, Djikstra's algo, TFIDF, etc), complexity analysis, some basic design patterns (pub/sub, consumer/producer, MVC, DI/IOC

The stereotypical 18-year-old nerd has at least some high-level understanding of _all_ of this from web sites, magazines, pet projects and now from MOOC's. As a teen, you may not get things right the first time and move at a relatively slow pace but refactoring code in different languages and learning from various online resources add up over the years. At least a few fresh high school grads get full-time programming jobs at respectable companies.

> "elitist CS grad that wants to believe his time in university was worth it and well spent"

Efficiency isn't all-or-nothing and I think open credit-granting exams would make college much better (disclosure: I'm in France where the situation is much worse than in the US).

[rjbwork]

I would genuinely like to meet this high school grad you speak of, because only the most talented of students in my freshman year even knew a fraction of that stuff. Maybe MOOC's will change it, but not before the "learn to hack on javascript" classes aren't most of the offerings. The only theory focused course I've done that seemed good was Stanford's DB course. Hopefully the Georgia Techs and Stanfords of the world can change that soon enough.

[toomuchtodo]

> algebra/calculus, SQL, OOP, DRY, writing reusable libraries, the OSI stack/model, some basic data structure/algorithms (trees, searches/sorts, graphs, Djikstra's algo, TFIDF, etc), complexity analysis, some basic design patterns (pub/sub, consumer/producer, MVC, DI/IOC

Want to grab coffee? I only have a GED (and I'm OP), but I learned almost everything you commented about in your post from on the job experience or learning on my own time.

I also spent 4 years building/selling a startup instead of spending time getting a degree. The education I received doing that is priceless to me.

Nothing you described can't be learned with time and online resources; none if it requires one on one time with a professor, nor a lecture hall.

[rjbwork]

I suppose if you've got some idea you're relentlessly devoted to enacting, you'll either end up learning this stuff or failing. The real problem is when you're someone like me who is long on technical chops, and short on actual business ideas. I just don't see where all this stuff is going to be taught in an on the job training kind of environment. Kudos to you for learning all of the above yourself to build your business rather than in school.

[toomuchtodo]

> I suppose if you've got some idea you're relentlessly devoted to enacting, you'll either end up learning this stuff or failing.

I agree with this.

> The real problem is when you're someone like me who is long on technical chops, and short on actual business ideas.

Its not about technical acumen, or about business ideas, its about the desire to learn and grow beyond what you already know. Its very, very hard to select for people like that. You have to tease it out of people over time, and few of us have the time needed for that.

> I just don't see where all this stuff is going to be taught in an on the job training kind of environment.

As I previously mentioned, I think apprenticeships are the way to go (apprenticeship/internship sort of environment, with acceptable pay). This is how I hire and train DevOps/Systems-Network Admins; I bring people in with 1-3 years of Linux experience (or even no experience if they show the desire to learn), and I teach/coach.

> Kudos to you for learning all of the above yourself to build your business rather than in school.

Thank you. We all take different paths. Some days I wish I had had the resources to go to college (MIT was my first pick, but couldn't for family reasons).

If you're ever in Chicago, coffee is on me. Email in profile.