Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by erkl 4484 days ago
If a publicly distributed first-hand account by the person in question isn't "solid proof," what exactly are you looking for? What reason do you have to think she's being anything less than truthful?
8 comments

Not judging her story as truthful does not imply judging it as not (or "anything less than") truthful either.

Her story as far as the article describes, is not an account, it's an accusation without much factual, actionable data. You normally don't judge on accusations until you have tried within reason to obtain factual data from both parties involved.

My approach is different actually. While I think the criminal justice "beyond a shadow of a doubt" standard is sensible for many criminal trials, because I have no legal power over github, I treat these things more like civil suits. Which means I just look for "the preponderance of the evidence". In this case there are varying amounts of evidence for all three of the following:

1) workplace harassment against women is quite common

2) such harassment is frequently ignored

3) there was some harassment in this case

And there's no evidence that I've seen that suggests there was no harassment or that it was handled properly by management. Therefore for the time being my assumption is that the harassment and mismanagement both happened.

That said, although I have seen mountains of evidence for 1) and 2), because the amount of evidence for the specific situation is small, that means a small amount of counter-evidence about the specific situation could easily shift the balance of probabilities.

That said, I have seen quite a bit of evidence that such accusations are only rarely false, so while I would change my balance of properties readily, I don't expect that to happen.

If I tweet that Github once kicked my puppy, is that "solid proof"?

There's even the possibility that she's being completely truthful, but GitHub's side of the situation is relevant and changes the full picture.

An accusation is not a proof, at least not in any civilized country. As for your other question, it's hard to prove a negative but if you want reasons, well, github doesn't have any past record of sexism and no one has ever quit from github. So the least we can do is give them the benefit of the doubt, right? Or shall we grab our pitchforks?
The corollary of your benefit of the doubt for github is "Horvath is probably lying or at best mistaken." Why is that your default assumption?
Because for two years she said the opposite? She is, was, or is and was obviously lying, it is just a matter of when and how much. Was she lying before when she said everything was awesome, or is she lying now?

You could play the super long odds, everything was AWESOME for the past two years, but just turned awful. Then she was only lying now (because "I've been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years..."). That would paint her in the absolute best light, and it IMHO, rather unrealistic.

You could even play the super-super long odds, and assume everything she said before was a lie (said it was good, it was actually awful) and then things BECAME good recently and she doubled-down on lying and said things were bad.

... in my case, it isn't an assumption. It is a expectation based on prior behavior.

She has previously classified someone complaining to her employer that she used foul language during a speech at a conference where she was representing her employer as harassment. This makes me question her judgment regarding what should be considered harassment.
I'll quote Lea Verou here: "not accepting something as de facto objective truth w/ no info != thinking one is lying. It's being rational instead of emotional." https://twitter.com/LeaVerou/status/445001688923914241

Here's an example:

X: The economy of Southern Portugal during the first half of the 13th century was bad. Do you agree?

Y: I don't know, I don't have enough info and absolutely zero knowledge of Portugal's economy during the 13th century.

X: are you calling me a liar?

that seems like a poor analogy to me. Try this one

Harry: I can't afford to do that

Tom: I don't know, I don't have enough info here to know if you can afford to do it or not.

Bob: Are you saying that Tom is lying, or that he doesn't know his own situation?

The big difference in this case is that while it is totally plausible for X and Y in your conversation to know literally nothing about Portugal, in my example it is not plausible for Harry to be unaware of his own situation without being an idiot. So when Tom 'withholds judgment' on Harry's situation, he is saying that evidence directly from Harry is untrustworthy - Harry is either a liar or an idiot. (I introduced the third person, Bob, as in this case Tom is Horvath and she is not the one responding to you, doubting Tom).

This is a wrong analogy because it doesn't involve grave accusations of a third party (Portugal's economy in my case and github in the other).
ok, try this

  Harry: John punched me     
  Tom: I don't know, I don't have enough info here to know if you were punched or not     
  Bob: Are you saying that Tom is lying, or that he can't recognise when he's being punched?
> what exactly are you looking for

Corroboration. Unless Julie Ann Horvath suffered in silence AND everyone else turned a blind eye, then there will be people who can support her story and provide additional credence to what she says.

> What reason do you have to think she's being anything less than truthful?

Experience. How often have we read a sensationalist-sounding story on the internet[0] that, in the end, turned out to be over-blown or an outright deception?

0 - "Single person claims that large/popular entity has done something despicable/outrageous! More at 11."

There are three sides to every story. In this case there is her side, github's side and the truth. It is not that someone is lying, it is that people perceive things differently and it takes time to detangle perceptions to reach the truth. Let's wait for the truth before casting stones in either direction ...
A counter-claim by the opposite party. more witnesses. evidence.

This isn't a formal court, but the court of public opinion can (in some cases) be more hurtful and more damaging than a real court that is merely exercising governmental powers.

Without a proof that is legally acceptable in a court of law, it's just her word against the companies.

I am not implying what she is saying is false. As @Jare said, "Her story as far as the article describes, is not an account, it's an accusation without much factual, actionable data."

Because by definition it's not. You need to corroborate with other views before making a conclusion. So far we only have some bite-sized anecdotes.

What's more is her testimony thus far has been very vague. She hasn't described any concrete event.