[stoptalkingshit]

Clueless. Just clueless. None of these benefits are tied to the crap browser platform that's been foisted on us. The stewards of the browser did a terrible job of designing it, as proven by shoddy hacks like asm.js. Did you know that it took WebGL to get them to introduce typed arrays? They weren't smart enough to see the usefulness of this, they had to bumble into it. Same with async HTTP requests. So woopty-doo you've caught up to where the JVM was over a decade ago. Semantic HTML has been destroyed by this mindset also.

[soapdog]

WTF? You simply go around calling people clueless without knowing their background? What is wrong with you?

The browser platform is not perfect, its not close to perfect, its evolving to do something that it was not originally designed to but it still the best shot at cross platform software. You can pick the JVM for all elegance it had, it never achieved what simple servers with bad markup languages did. There is a reason why you are typing on a browser right now and not using a java applet. The reason is that even with all the drawbacks of web technology, it works, it is easy to implement, it is easy to learn. Its not about über programmers in ivory towers, its about empowering everyone with a technology that is easy to grasp. It takes a very good professional to craft a good web app but it still easy enough that people from non-technical backgrounds can share knowledge. Its a platform for sharing stuff.

Yes they added typed arrays just now. The engines evolved a lot during the last two years. Lots of things are being ironed out. Instead of just seeing deficiencies, see how progress is being made with something that is open, free and common.

[stoptalkingshit]

So what you're saying is it's lowest-common-denominator crap? Then we agree!

[stcredzero]

None of these benefits are tied to the crap browser platform that's been foisted on us.

No, but they are tied to the web, for which browsers and JavaScript are an incumbent technology. You are right, in the same way that Windows has nothing in particular to do with games, outside of a fortunate adoption of DirectX. It's just that it's the way the world turned out. Admittedly, there are downsides.

[stoptalkingshit]

The popularity of DirectX doesn't vindicate Windows either. So what's your point? It's shit but, eh, that's the way the world turned out? People have every right to be annoyed because the people who were entrusted with the concept of the web implemented it very badly. At least on Windows there's a serious effort to give me as much of the machine's power as possible. I had a better programming experience with Java applets more than a decade ago. It is a joke.

[stcredzero]

It's shit but, eh, that's the way the world turned out?

We are in agreement.

People have every right to be annoyed because the people who were entrusted with the concept of the web implemented it very badly.

Again, no disagreement. But in the meantime, implementing things is still my preferred activity to complaining.

[stoptalkingshit]

Well, I agree. And asm.js etc are better than what we had before, so some praise should be allocated to them. But it is not innovative or elegant; it's a hack that takes us back to the state of the JVM more than a decade ago, and we're going to be paying the cost for it for some time. Hell, they can't even get the simplest possible thing - the syntax of HTML - right. So it will always anger me when I see web types touting their "innovation" etc. They are good at one thing: marketing to stupids.

[stcredzero]

They are good at one thing: marketing to stupids.

Windows. The market has spoken. Let's just all be smart enough to not be defeated by the marketing to stupids.

[pcwalton]

> At least on Windows there's a serious effort to give me as much of the machine's power as possible.

What is asm.js (and WebGL, for that matter) if not that?

[johnbm]

WebGL is a deliberately limited but secure sandbox based on a spec for mobile devices that is two major releases out of date and makes an Xbox 360 look like science fiction.

Asm.js is an enormous hack where we limit the computational expressiveness of performance critical code by the semantics and standard library of a language notoriously shit at it.

[pcwalton]

> WebGL is a deliberately limited but secure sandbox based on a spec for mobile devices that is two major releases out of date and makes an Xbox 360 look like science fiction.

Unreal Engine 4 is a counterexample.

> Asm.js is an enormous hack where we limit the computational expressiveness of performance critical code by the semantics and standard library of a language notoriously shit at it.

How is it limited?

[ferongr]

To be honest, the video in TFA looks like something out of a 2009 game, it's not particularly impressive. And I guess it'll probably be a rolling demo, not having the requirements of a complete game that also has to handle a bunch of computationally expensive stuff like collisions, game logic etc.

[johnbm]

"Unreal Engine 4" is marketing buzzspeak. WebGL is modelled after OpenGL ES 2. Its GLSL support is massively outdated. It lacks features like multiple render targets (used by any deferred renderer in the XB360 era, e.g. Unreal Engine 3), geometry shaders, multisampled reads (for HDR MSAA and hybrid spatial/temporal AA techniques), and tons of other common techniques.

Asm.js is limited by having no 32-bit float type, no 64-bit int type, no SIMD, no dynamic memory allocation and the fact that they had to extend the language from day 1 just to be able to multiply a 32-bit integer by another quickly.

You may want to actually inform yourself.

[epsylon]

There are numerous security issues with WebGL, so I wouldn't really call it "secure".

[stoptalkingshit]

A decade-late attempt to catch up with the JVM. Notice how there's no design here? It's because the web people had no idea this would be necessary and it got bolted on as a reaction to competitors. That is to say, the innovation belongs to plugin vendors, not the web people.

[kybernetikos]

I would have been perfectly happy to be working with the JVM here, except that the JVM as a platform for web-type client stuff died because the user experience was implemented so shoddily.

There was no conspiracy against it. It had its chance. It used to have high install rates. It was placed about as perfectly for success as you could hope to be. If it hadn't failed so miserably at what it set out to do and be (and instead succeeded in a different area), we would be using it now, and living in the utopia you wish for.

As an aside, a lot of your complaints against web technologies make it sound as if there is a cohesive group of people designing something and doing it wrong. Actually it's a much more chaotic process involving a diverse group of people and companies and competing interests. It doesn't guarantee that we end up with the best designs, but such a process has benefits too, and since it's happening in the open, you could actually take part too (assuming you aren't already).

[stoptalkingshit]

>It doesn't guarantee that we end up with the best designs, but such a process has benefits too, and since it's happening in the open, you could actually take part too (assuming you aren't already).

Unfortunately, what is needed is LESS people participating.