[frou_dh]

It's against the grain to think this way in dynamic languages because variables don't have types, only individual values do. Ill-thought truthiness rules are the real problem. IMO every value except boolean false (and, if you insist, nil/null) should be truthy in a dynamic language.

[dragonwriter]

> It's against the grain to think this way in dynamic languages because variables don't have types, only individual values do.

So? "The only valid type for a conditional is boolean" still works if types only apply to values. Under that principle, anything but True or False value encountered in evaluating the condition of an if statement ought to throw a TypeError, not be evaluated for truthiness. If you are expecting something else, call an explicit, use-case-appropriate function to get the right in-context truth value.

(Note, I'm not saying Python should do this, I'm explaining how the logic applies to Python without any contradiction to the "variables don't have types, values do" principle.)

> IMO every value except boolean false (and, if you insist, nil/null) should be truthy in a dynamic language.

I think that's better than what Python does (Ruby does that by default, with nil included as false, though it is IIRC possible-but-extremely-strongly-discouraged to override the default truthiness of objects so you could have classes with falsey values), and I lean toward preferring that approach, but the idea that a dynamic language would do well to just allow True and False as the only valid (non-error-producing) values for an "if" statement is not, IMO, without some merit.

[frou_dh]

We're on the same page - I just didn't phrase that well. I mentioned it because most of the time what's written is a test of a variable, not a literal value, and that couldn't get a thumbs-up as robust without someone putting a static analyzer hat on.

Having a simple universal truthiness rule seems preferable and more in the spirit of a dynamic language.

[icarus127]

> variables don't have types, only individual values do.

It really depends on what language you're using. This is more or less true in Python, Ruby, and Javascript. In Lisp generic methods you can specify the type for the input variables and be guaranteed that if you are inside the method the parameters are of that specific type. For optimization reasons you can also declare to the compiler that variables are a specific type. This is really important when doing numeric computations in a tight loop. I've had 50% - 80% performance improvement by declaring types (amounting to hours of run time). I think Groovy and Clojure also allow this but I don't know much about those two.

There's also the maintenance issue though. After a few years of maintaining a fairly large Lisp project I've become pretty convinced that the only way to stay sane, at least for me, is to treat it as a statically typed language. I have asserts and check-type macros all over the place. If variables may have multiple types they can be checked against '(or type1 type2) but things do become more complicated then.

[frou_dh]

Interesting. Admittedly I have only used (UnCommon) Lisps in a hobbyist way and haven't been concerned with techniques for extra speed/robustness there.