[sskates]

Whenever I read HN and see an extremely anti-startup comment I always know it's from you. For a while I'd get angry reading your comments, but I'm actually curious- What on earth happened between you and startups to make you think they're a huge scam to take advantage of the unsuspecting?

I'm a nobody who came to Silicon Valley and has done relatively well for himself as a founder. I've seen many, many other founders with similar stories. We raised a significant amount of money and can spend it however we want. The worst I can say about my experience with investors is sometimes they can be arrogant. The ones that did invest in us have been nothing but incredibly humble and helpful. But going out of their way to screw someone over? I just haven't ever seen anything close to that happen to anyone in the 3 years I've been here.

I used to work in finance where they're much more ruthless. I have a classmate from undergrad who recently was arrested for "stealing trade secrets" from a hedge fund: http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2014/02/19/analyst-c.... Who knows what actually happened but that sort of stuff would never fly in Silicon Valley.

That's not to say I have the correct perspective but I always see these generalizations coming from you that seem so far off from my reality that I wonder what's going on. What happened to you?

[__--__]

He's not the only anti-startup commenter here. I'm curious, have you ever worked at a startup as a programmer, not as a founder? Sometimes, it's easier to see the downside of a system when you're not the one profiting from it.

[nostrademons]

The part I don't understand is why people generalize their one bad experience to "the whole system is corrupt!"

I've worked for two startups as a programmer. They were both broken, and each was broken in its own way. I don't think that the founders of them were bad people or out to screw me. They were, however, way in over their heads. Startups are hard.

I also founded a startup. It was also broken in its own way, despite trying to avoid all the mistakes that I'd seen my previous bosses make. Startups are hard. Luckily, I didn't take anyone else down with me - it was just me and my cofounder, he soft-landed at business school and I soft-landed at Google.

I now work at Google. It is significantly less broken than any previous startups I've worked at. However, there are still a bunch of things about it that are annoyances.

No place is ever going to be perfect, but if you tar each new employer with the same broad brush that made you leave the last one, then chances are the same broad problems will come up.

[michaelochurch]

I've written about it at length already and don't choose to relive it in detail, but I worked for an extremely unethical startup.

In 3 months, I saw... bait-and-switch hiring all over the place, multiple people hired into the same management role, and (after I left) a CEO who spent months trying to destroy my reputation.

At 3 months, I was brought into a room with HR and the CTO. Upper management wanted to get rid of early hires with "too much" equity and wanted to pull my technical credibility to justify their firing, but the documents I was asked to sign constituted perjury (blaming people for nonexistent technical shortfalls, claiming that I directly managed people I didn't even know, etc.) Some of the claims would have required revising my past and saying I'd consulted (a consulting VP/Eng, I can't make this shit up) with the company before the start date (in order to make the rest of the story check out). They fired me for refusing to do it. When I pointed out that I had grounds for a lawsuit, the CEO threatened to pull family connections and bribe judges.

I'm sorry, but I don't do "We're giving you 10 reports, and your job is to fuck over all of them over the next two months." I may or may not be a leader (that's not for me to decide) but I am surely not a henchman.

This is one of the VC darlings and although it was almost a down round (barely above flat) and dilution was heavy, they raised again in late 2013 (almost 2 years after that happened). Granted, this last VC round is essentially a severance, giving the company a couple years to run on fumes while its executives find better things to do with their lives. But I didn't get a severance, so why should they?

Now, I think companies that are that shitty are pretty rare, even in the VC-funded world. That might be bottom 1% overall and bottom-10% in the VC-funded world. Even most startups and ex-startups (e.g. Google) aren't nearly as bad, but there is a certain crappiness to the tech world in terms of how regular people are treated. Companies care a lot about image (being sexy, "cool", VC darlings, whatever) but not about long-standing reputation-- at least, on the latter, not enough to seriously value doing the right thing.

The old Silicon Valley was a pay-it-forward economy. Even when you separated, you were good to other people. If you had to cut people in your startup, you introduced them to investors. People helped each other out. You didn't fuck over a talented engineer, because you might want to work with him 5 or 10 years later. That's gone now.

I do have to offer this disclaimer, though. I never worked on the West Coast. Maybe it's different out there, but the things I've heard convince me that it's not that different, and I've definitely met dodgy characters in California.

Day to day, what angers me is the general lack of respect for engineers in the "new" Silicon Valley. I'm talking about the startups offering pathetic equity slices, and about the companies that are actually very business-driven posing as "tech companies". Engineering and research talents aren't really valued, despise the mouth-honor paid to them.

[steven2012]

"I do have to offer this disclaimer, though. I never worked on the West Coast."

LOL okay I guess that explains it. I've been in the Bay Area since the dot-com times, and the type of behavior you describe is something I've never seen, not even once. I've worked for some real assholes, and I don't deny that this probably happens here, but not often for it to be a discernible trend.

Yes, you had a bad experience, but no it's not all like that, at all. I work for a YC startup, something I never thought I would do, and the cofounders are genuine, smart and people I'm ready to put my career and financial future behind even though I'm roughly 15 years older.