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by geebee 4498 days ago
I'm really glad to see that this issue is getting more coverage in the mainstream press. There was an article/editorial a while back (discussed on HN) from the guardian, but unfortunately, the writer used the incident (the collusion) to go on a rant about how valley leaders are hypocritical libertarians. That (reasonably enough) lead to a long debate about whether the leaders are libertarians even if they are mainly democrats, etc...

This article stuck to the point much better. I do think Mr Levy (quoted in this article) went a little far in suggesting that the engineers are a very well heeled class.

"Santa Clara County, in the heart of Silicon Valley, has the highest average wage in the country,” said Stephen Levy, senior economist at the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy. “San Francisco and San Mateo are not far behind. It would be a mistake to think of these plaintiffs as an oppressed set of victims."

Agreed, programmers in the bay area aren't dust bowl refugees. However, we need to recognize that the relatively high salaries don't go far in high cost regions (where many of these companies are located), and aren't that high relative to the higher wages typical of these regions.

Application developers in SF earn, on average, a tiny bit less than RNs and a whisker more than dental hygienists (links at end). I'm 100% ok with good wages for nurses and dental hygienists, but keep in mind that these tech companies have been almost frantically lobbying congress to do something about a severe shortage of highly educated programmers and engineers.

Well, first and foremost, how about you stop colluding to suppress their wages? That might attract a few more people into the field.

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-b...

http://blog.sfgate.com/gettowork/2013/12/17/what-the-most-co...

2 comments

The full linked data for that occupation list really makes your point clear:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm

It's certainly not the case that IT people are hurting terribly but it makes it hard to argue that there is in fact a significant shortage or that we need programs to attract more CS majors rather than, say, simply paying at least as much as some of the other things students choose to major in.

Is there indeed a shortage of app developers because of the low wages? I was always thinking of software as a segment where entry barriers are relatively low - compared to, say, medicine - and pay is exceptionally good. Of course, everybody wants to be paid better, but it doesn't look like software engineers are suffering especially badly from low pay.
People (including me) often say that barriers to entry are low, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are no legal barriers to entry. But barriers to being a "mathematician" are also low. But would you say that the barriers to doing meaningful mathematical work are low? It's out of reach of most of the population.

Anyone can hang out a shingle as a software developer, but are the barriers to getting through the technical grilling typical of a software interview process really low? Just because there are no legal barriers doesn't mean that it's an easy thing to learn.

I don't think that software engineers are suffering from bad pay, but is the pay high enough that it makes sense to be talking about a severe shortage that the government should start fixing? Based on pay, I'd say we should take the "software developer" shortage about as seriously as we take the "dental hygenist" shortage.

The thing is, anyone who has read, say the Django tutorial can say "I have done Django developemnt", whereas that is a world of difference from having a solid understanding of database design and deep understanding of all parts of the framework and able to set up such an app on various different servers.

Interviews in IT seem to be a mess, though looking at what I have been asked in the past few years. Pointless trivial pursuit sytle Python questions and the likes.

I'd say definitely lower than RN. Not to mention all kinds of certifications that can be expensive and time-consuming too. Great software engineers are rare, but common ones are nowhere near the level you need to be to make a significant contribution to math field. And the pay is much better.
Most of the developers I've met from the companies mentioned have masters or phds as well as substantial work experience on real-world projects. Those that don't are usually exceptional individuals.
You have very biased view of the industry then, probably because of the specifics of your social circle. Absolute majority of tech industry doesn't have PhDs and does work that in no way, form or manner requires PhD.