Ask HN: Do you Consider Life to be Futile

[tekkanphan]

I Have no Formal Background in Philosophy. All I've Learned is from Internet and Books such as The Stranger(Camus),Sophie's World(Jostein Gaarder.) etc. It would be really great If you can give Elegant Arguments for either case .(And please don't bring uncertain entities(like God) or concepts).Thanks.

[tomjakubowski]

I turn to the great philosophers of the early 90's when struggling with these sort of existential questions:

    Life's a bitch and then you die
    That's why we get high
    Cause you never know when you're gonna go
    Life's a bitch and then you die
    That's why we puff lye
    Cause you never know when you're gonna go

http://rapgenius.com/Nas-lifes-a-bitch-lyrics

[AnimalMuppet]

If there is no God, if all there is is the physical universe, then we are here only by chance. The universe doesn't care about us, because there's nobody there to care. All there is is matter and the laws of physics.

Therefore, all we can be is matter that obeys the laws of physics. That's all we can be - nothing more.

In particular, it is impossible that we have any kind of free will or real choice. Matter that obeys the laws of physics doesn't choose anything - it just obeys the laws of physics.

Love (in the real sense, that of choosing to do what's best for the other person) is impossible, because choosing is impossible.

And you can keep going down the list. Everything that we think of as making us human is dead, and we are just machines made of atoms biochemicals, and neurons. We're slaves to the laws of physics.

If that's the case, then what kind of meaning is possible? Even meaning that we make for ourselves, we're making as robots.

There lies the horror of modern humanity. We have all these human aspirations, including the longing for meaning, but we don't believe that what we long for is at all possible. The impersonal universe, creating us by chance, has made us with desires but with no way to fulfill them. What a horror we are trapped in!

You have asked that we not bring God in. But at this point, you kind of have to, because the existence of God would totally change this picture. If there is a God, and if God is a He rather than an It, then personality can a real thing, rather than just a "ghost in the machine". And if He made humans, then human personality can also be real rather than just a facade that emerges from complex mechanistic behavior.

So that's the alternative: Either you were created as a cruel joke by an impersonal, mechanistic universe, or as a true personality by a God who is a person. Now to my point: I assert that your desire for meaning is not just a cruel joke. It is evidence - evidence that you are more than the materialist view says that you can be.

Commence hellbanning in 5, 4, 3...

[idoh]

I like your comment, but I think it creates a false dichotomy between a deterministic universe or one with a higher power. What about a middle option, where there is no higher power but the universe isn't deterministic?

If the laws of physics include randomness / some amount of vagueness, then maybe it changes things from a philosophical perspective.

[AnimalMuppet]

If there is no higher power, if the physical universe is all there is, and if our current understanding of the physical universe is correct, there is some randomness - quantum uncertainty. But that's not the same as my free will or ability to choose, because my choice does not determine the results of the quantum uncertainty.

That leaves me essentially as a deterministic machine with some noise at the lowest levels. It doesn't leave me as what was classically considered human...

[ASpring]

People believe what they WANT to believe.

I've heard this statement quite a few times and it still remains somehow both redundant and thought provoking. If a person wants to have religion answer existential questions for themselves I think it's wrong to demonize that.

[maximgsaini]

Is it Futile? Is human existence futile? Depends on what your definition of 'futile' is. When compared to the expanse of the entire universe, we are a mere speck. No matter what we do today, we will make no difference to the progression of the universe. Even if we somehow developed the capability to alter the progression of our solar system (note that we can alter the progression of things here on earth), it would potentially be 'futile'.

We potentially don't have a 'purpose'. But why do you need a 'purpose'? Does the moon have 'purpose' too? Will a Blazar be 'evil' if it destroys us with its gamma radiation someday? The human brain is wired to find purpose behind simple things. This simple 'feature' has helped us come so far. It helps us while dealing with the social/human/biological order of things. Why does the US government have this policy? Why did facebook buy WhatsApp? Why is an elephant so big? These are reasonable questions. But it doesn't apply to the natural order...why are we here? Why does the earth exist? Of course, "how we got here" is a relevant scientific question. But "why" is probably not.

Look at the irony. The human brain is arguably the most important thing in the universe. Despite that fact, it is potentially 'futile'. Probably, there is nothing in the universe which is not 'futile'.

You can't alter the universe. But you can alter the race which has the potential to alter the universe. So help the human race get there.

just my 2 cents.

[tostitos1979]

Two thoughts:

1) Read "The Conquest of Happiness" by Bertrand Russell. It really helped me.

2) If you have the gift of building stuff, a good purpose of life is to build bridges. I don't mean to connect people together. Think of a tribe on an island. The island has another island beside it. People might be able to get from their home island to another, but it is a pain. When someone (maybe me, maybe you) builds a bridge to the other land, all of society gains a little bit. If the bridge is solid, maybe it will last for generations. People will go about their business but their lives will be somewhat improved by the bridge. This is one of the reasons I like to write software. My attitude has caused me some problems in my career. I'm a scientist and I should not be writing software most of the time. But whatever, that's what gives my life meaning.

[lutusp]

> Do you Consider Life to be Futile

This presumes that life has its own predefined explanation that all organisms must obey. But:

1. Evolution by natural selection contradicts the idea that life has a predefined explanation, and evolution is one of the most powerful and well-supported of scientific theories.

2. As thinking creatures, we get to use our intelligence to decide for ourselves what our lives mean. This is the personal version of natural selection.

So, on that basis, if you have the idea that life is futile, just come up with a new idea. This intellectual latitude is what separates you from a rock.

> And please don't bring uncertain entities(like God) or concepts.

Wouldn't dream of it. God (religion) is one of the classic traps that makes life seem to have a predefined meaning, one not in our control. On that basis alone it should be rejected by all free thinkers.

[porker]

> Wouldn't dream of it. God (religion) is one of the classic traps that makes life seem to have a predefined meaning, one not in our control. On that basis alone it should be rejected by all free thinkers.

How can you determine whether life has predefined meaning, no meaning at all, or somewhere in-between? Shouldn't all viewpoints be rejected by free thinkers and only an agnostic-to-any-position viewpoint be held?

[tekkanphan]

Good Argument until "This intellectual latitude is what separates you from a rock.

[lutusp]

Oh, well, it sounded good at the time. :)

Were you objecting on the basis that the rock has some version of consciousness? The argument has been made and it's interesting, but I thought it was pretty far afield from the present topic.

[tekkanphan]

>The argument has been made and it's interesting, but I thought it was pretty far afield from the present topic.

Well your argument was right on Topic.Are you referring to any other topic.

>Were you objecting on the basis that the rock has some version of consciousness?

No i took it personally :)

[lutusp]

Whoah, very sorry -- it wasn't meant as any kind of criticism, solely that rocks aren't usually thought of as conscious entities.

It's just that one theory of consciousness is that we shouldn't be trying so hard to locate it in ourselves for the reason that all matter has consciousness. I emphasize that this idea has zero scientific support, it's just a philosophical speculation.

Again, no offense intended -- not at all.

[collyw]

There isn't a lot of scientific evidence for anything related to conciseness.

Science is based on observation, while we experience consciousness. And as the Buddhists, say you can't observe an experience.

[tekkanphan]

I was only joking. No offense is taken.

[luxpir]

Yes, it is completely futile, if you ask me. I've thought a lot about the varying arguments, to the point where all parties from agnostics to the religious and/or spiritual and even the (noisy) atheists frustrate me for their absolute confidence in their own 'logic'. But, and it's a big but, from a human point of view, futility should not be cause for concern.

Life is beautiful (to the average human) in so many ways. Anyone who can read and contemplate this kind of post has won the greatest lottery in the universe, and those winnings shouldn't be squandered on worry and complaint.

[kennethtilton]

My first thought was that the question cannot be answered without knowing what we must fail at inevitably for life to be futile. I looked up futile to be sure:

"incapable of producing any useful result; pointless."

As I feared, it begs the question: what is considered useful?

If it is leaving the world a better (healthier, more peaceful, more ccmfrtable) place than when you found it, no, life is not futile.

If the goal is personal happiness or at least contentment, no, life is not futile, though it certainly feels that way during clinical depression. (Long, dark winters can do that -- look up S.A.D.)

[tekkanphan]

Good Argument. Then Do you believe in More is better?

[kennethtilton]

Good gosh, no. For example, I am with Einstein: make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. ie, There is a right amount of everything. I guess I am also with Goldilocks, then. I said, "More comfortable", but Americans have nicely demonstrated how in excess that leads to obesity and diabetes. So now we have learned that true comfort comes from a bit more exercise and a lot less garbage food, and now we have come full circle: life is not futile. People ridiculed in the 60s for espousing healthier diet finally got heard and made the world a better place. Did you see the recent news about Coke/Pepsi in decline? Kaching.

[GotAnyMegadeth]

If you are talking about Pizza, yes, If you are talking about headaches, no.

[lugg]

Of course. You're born naked and you die naked. The only point to life anyone can possibly argue is one they deem worthy. For me, I felt content at 17. From there I decided the only way I would be happy living longer is if it would mean something at least in the end. How did I define "meaning": decided I had to change the world, for better or worse, as long as something in the world changes by my being around, I'll be content. In other words if I could have not existed and the world ends up in the same place without me, I've failed.

In ten years that might mean having kids, right now it means trying to set myself up so I can focus on making a real difference when I figure out how to make the world a little bit less fucked.

Like I said, I dont think anyone can argue this without first assuming their view is somewhat correct in the first place. All of the above is just my views on this topic. Take it or leave it I'm not really fussed, just thought I would share.

[wturner]

I'm convinced there is an 'order' to this world. It might all be one giant illusion where our attempts to understand the underline fabric is all ego driven dribble ( or whatever) but this still assumes an order. I'm more in awe of that than the question of futility. If their is an "order" does that presume purpose? No. But it presumes something 'more' and the 'more' is what drives people. So maybe a lack of futility resides in this part of us somewhere. Most organisms are designed to populate and survive, as a species we do that pretty well so I suppose we are not-as-futile as some species but at the same time we can't fuck with cockroaches and water bears. lol

I'm really on here just trying to get a job. wktdev [at] gee mail

[sixQuarks]

"life" which comes with consciousness is simply the universe reflecting on itself. Everything in the universe is made up of atoms including "ourselves".

Cells are the basic building blocks of life. We are made up of trillions of cells. If each cell were "conscious", they would think of you the same way we think of the interconnected consciousness of the 7 billion humans on this planet.

What I'm trying to say is that there are layers upon layers of "life". I believe it goes on endlessly in both directions and sometimes we get trapped into thinking too much about "I" or "me".

Life is what it is. Enjoy the fact that you're able to see and undertand a very small glimpse of it. That is truly a miracle.

[raquo]

I'm assuming this is a practical question rather than a theoretical one, since you don't want abstract concepts that you can't relate to.

Usually if you enjoy your live you don't stop to ask if it's futile or not. When life is hard or boring... that's when such questions usually arise.

So... I don't what to assume to much, but if life is too boring, you CAN make it better. It's not futile. The general strategy seems to be to 1) get skills, 2) get paid for those skills, 3) have free time, 4) figure out what's interesting to you and spend time and money doing that. Many people have problems figuring out each of these steps, but they're all solvable.

[tekkanphan]

Actually I didn't say that I don't want Abstract concepts. I don't want concepts which do not proceed by logic .

[raquo]

Well, there is a certain enjoyment that comes from living – doing the things one enjoys. I don't know how one could argue that enjoying life is futile. If one is currently unable to do the things they enjoy, he/she should figure out how to fix it (see the general plan in previous comment). If one does not enjoy anything, he/she should try new things to discover what he/she enjoys. Not wanting to do such a discovery may be a sign of poor environment / life situation, medical conditions (depression), or general laziness. Each of these is generally solvable. A person who is truly determined to improve his/her life usually succeeds at the task, sooner or later. The key is to take the matter in their own hands rather than expect life to get better by itself. If anything I'd say ding so is a prerequisite of adulthood.

[dmfdmf]

The idea that life is futile or pointless or absurd has a long tradition in western philosophic thought, however it is rests on a fundamental error and is a dead-end. I won't go into the technical details but, no, I do not subscribe to that view. You?

[tekkanphan]

Can you point out the fundamental error. Reasoning is always welcome

[ohsnap]

If you liked the stranger give his book the myth of sisyphus a try. You'd probably enjoy that.

There are no elegant arguments. Eventually you'll find a book, an idea, or an experience that speaks to you ... and that will make you comfortable in not knowing.

[tekkanphan]

This question is not even in top 5 pages of Ask HN. can anyone explain me why? There are no flame wars going on here , and people have come up with Good explanations too.

[codezero]

No.

[GrahamsNumber]

Life sucks, and then you die.

[mikelyons]

Parking's a bitch and then you marry one.