[baby]

> This implies that you have some sort of control between the start and the end - which is completely untrue.

You're just saying you believing in destiny.

I believe the inverse. And we will never know the truth so please don't start with a "which is completely untrue" when it's just an opinion.

[datphp]

Causality (in which most people believe, even though they never abstracted it far enough to realize the implications)

[baby]

Causality doesn't imply you have no control at all in your life.

[datphp]

Yes it does, it means every "frame" (yay video games terms) of your life, including the complete state of your mind, is a cause of the previous "frame".

Every decision is a product of your experience and state of mind, that are the product of you previous decisions, that are the product of your previous experience.. something, something!

[run4_too]

This completely ignores that you have choice.

You can go get another beer, as would be expected given you had three previously and chose to come to a bar, or you can choose to go home and sleep, or get in your car and drive, or swear off drinking forever.

The fact that options are present to you because of your previous choices (causality) is irrelevant to the fact that you still have full control over what option you select (free will).

[baby]

Yes, but to speak in video games term, you can still move the arrow of your character. Of course your decision are the product of your previous experience + a lot of other factors. But I believe there is a random factor, when we make a decision, we do choose one over the other.

We'll never know anyway, but I feel like there would be nothing, no universe, no life, no space etc... if there was not this "random" thing.

[jmaschad]

Randomness isn't exactly how most people would define control either.

Nevertheless, I agree with your critique of determinism. Think outside the "system". Nobody knows why stuff exists or why it behaves the way it does, it's all just observation and ideas.