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by ergoproxy 4515 days ago
The author, Dean Baker, has a very narrow view of what libertarianism is and isn't. I'm a left-libertarian. I take a great deal of inspiration from the libertarian activist Karl Hess, who developed the language of the 1% versus the 99% in his 1975 manifesto, Dear America:

"1.6 percent of the adult population owns 82 percent of all stock, and thus actually owns American business and industry. In a very real sense, that tiny 1 percent of the population faces the other 99 percent across a barrier of very real self-interest. That tiny 1 percent has been accumulating more as the years go on, not less. The key to that accumulation is assuring that the people who make up the other 99 percent are sharply restricted in what power and privilege they accumulate."

Again, that was written by an American libertarian.

Libertarianism is a family of philosophical viewpoints, that runs the gamut from the "Libertarian socialism" of Noam Chomsky to the "Geolibertarianism" of Henry George to the craziness of the "Tea Party."

It's noteworthy that Ayn Rand denounced libertarianism. I was excommunicated from the Objectivist club in college for espousing libertarian anarchist views.

It's also noteworthy that Tea Party founder Karl Denninger renounced the Tea Party, saying it was co-opted by the Republican Party, which shifted its focus to "Guns, gays, God." He sums up his feelings toward the Tea Party, saying:

"Tea Party my ass. This was nothing other than The Republican Party stealing the anger of a population that was fed up with The Republican Party's own theft of their tax money at gunpoint to bail out the robbers of Wall Street and fraudulently redirecting it back toward electing the very people who stole all the f---ing money!" Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/karl-denninger-tea-...

Someone who's really interested in the variety of libertarianism ought to start with the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

2 comments

You're coming over rather no true scotsman there. Every political group tries to disown the negative aspects of its labels. But those who self-identify as libertarian are and should be judged on the views and actions of others who self-identify as libertarian.
He's not going the one true scotsman route. He's actually saying that there _isn't_ such a thing as a true scotsman at all, because each group of scots has its own ideas of what a "true scotsman" is -- which is a pretty insightful point to make.

There is no such thing as a 'true' libertarian, because many groups with only tangentially related credos have adopted the name as their own, and many groups have distanced themselves from the 'libertarian' label even though they espouse beliefs closely related to what is often understood as being libertarianism. It follows that, when you criticise people for being

We don't seriously expect Hacker News to mostly carry news about the newest exploits and defaced sites, do we? Same deal, talking about libertarians doesn't necessarily correctly identify the population you're targeting.

Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"? If the label includes people with a wide range of fundamentally incompatible views, it's not very useful to use as a yard stick. It looks a lot like guilt by association.
> Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"?

Yes

> It looks a lot like guilt by association.

Your political affiliation is your own choice, so it doesn't seem to have that unfairness.

So it's fair to judge Democrats as guilty by association in this case?

(Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Marisa Mayer, Eric Schmidt and Steve Jobs all self-identify as "Democrat", not "[Ll]ibertarian". The president of Adobe is on Obama's PMAB. I can't find info on the others with 3 minutes of googling.)

Sure, although I'm not sure the hypocrisy line is terribly effective here. A bunch of people who think regulations are necessary to stop corporations exploiting their workers turn out to run corporations that exploit workers? Well, yeah, isn't that exactly what you'd expect?
Most association is your own choice.
The only thing all libertarians hold in common is a strong belief in individual freedom. Different factions of libertarian construe freedom differently. Noam Chomsky opposes Corporate power, Government power, and Patriarchal power in the family. The Tea Party primarily opposes the power of the Government to tax. My big problem is with Tea Party elites who are really only interested in 0% capital gains taxes, and could care less about lowering regressive payroll taxes and excise taxes. As an individualist, I only take responsibility for my own words and actions. I don't accept responsibility for others--not even other left-libertarians, and certainly not Tea Partiers.
After a lifetime of considering myself a "civil libertarian" liberal, I've also recently come to identify as left libertarian, although I'm pretty sympathetic any thinking libertarian (cue the insults...3 2 1).

Anyway, do you know of any good Internet communities for left libertarians? IRC, message boards, blogs, etc?

It's pretty hard to label yourself since the labels seem to move faster than any of my beliefs have changed. Hell, saying your a member of a party isn't good enough given some of the conflicts between the "leadership" and the rank & file.

no insults and no idea where to find people.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you. Rather, I was expecting I would get the typical "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult that I see everywhere these days from a random commenter. Apologies for making an ambiguous statement.

Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO.

"Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you."

Didn't think you did, I just was pointing out I intended none just as I failed to provide a reference for where to find a group / organization meeting your needs.

"Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO."

Oh, I don't disagree with that, words act as banners to organize. It is just that labels seem to morph. Back in the day, writing a grant to the government that had certain words that worked 5 years before would be an auto reject. Its like fashion, except I have no clue how the words get drifted.

Currently, depending on company, I could go with the label "classically liberal capitalist" or "tea party republican". Of course, the problem with the later is the assumptions one makes based on what you've "heard" as opposed to what I and others actually believe. This seems to mirror your experience with "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult for Libertarian.

The defense seems to be adding words or conditions that make people try to figure out the changed definition. I would bet you've heard the "I'm a little l libertarian". To which people go "uhm, explain that?!?".

Words come out and sometimes back into fashion. Opponents of a belief heap added (mostly untrue generally derogatory) meaning on a word until the definition changes. Then people get tired of defending that word and pick a new one to define them. I know its happened with Occupy and the Tea Party.