[00rion]

If the government offered a legitimate and effective way for whistleblowers to expose wrongdoing and unconstitutional behavior, perhaps they could limit this type of damage from being done. As it stands, the release of this information could be considered collateral damage as result of their continued persecution of whistleblowers.

[minimax]

The people who are harmed by making this information public is not the U.S. government. Think it through. Who wins by knowing how the US government conducts targeted counterintelligence operations? That will be primarily terrorists, organized crime, and oppressive governments. So then who loses? That will naturally be victims of terrorism, organized crime, and oppressive governments. That is why I don't think it's responsible to go around publicizing every little detail about NSA/GCHQ CI techniques and technology.

[CWuestefeld]

You're assuming that these programs really are serving to curtail terrorist activities. In fact, that is very much in doubt.

Given that the net effect of these programs, so far as anyone in the government has been able to demonstrate, ranges from zero to trivially small, rendering these programs inoperative will have a zero or trivial positive effect for the terrorists.

I suspect that you're reply that the govt's inability to demonstrate the program's efficacy is because such a demonstration would necessarily reveal so much that the programs would be rendered ineffective in the process. Too damned bad. At some point we've got to touch base with the philosophical foundation on which the government is built. Ultimately, we are the masters, and the government operates only as we allow it to. Allowing the government to circumvent so many of the liberties which the Bill of Rights guarantees will be conserved for the people is to turn the design of our government on its head.

[00rion]

I don't think you're being very clear. The victims of terrorism generally don't have access to the information that these counterintelligence operations obtain. In other words, the victims are in the same place they were before they knew what the NSA was capable of. What I think you're saying is doublespeak. To paraphrase your argument, "Snowden is doing damage to our counterintelligence capabilities by releasing this information. Also, Snowden isn't doing any damage to the government." These statements contradict one another.

[minimax]

My point was that revealing CI techniques empowers terrorists, which tends to be a bad thing for (potential) victims of terrorism.

[00rion]

That's certainly a possibility. The contrary may prove to be true as well. For example, if I was a terrorist and I knew that the NSA was spying on all my phone communications, I may elect to not use a phone. This means that I'm not as effective at communicating with other terrorists which may reduce the effect I have. You may very well be right though. It's unclear to me.

[CamperBob2]

That will be primarily terrorists

Ooga-booga! TERRORISTS!!!11!!

Still waiting for a list of "terrorists" caught by this program.