[ItendToDisagree]

What are they supposed to do? A large (in american politics terms) group of people tried really hard to get 'hope and change' elected and look at what that did?

By 'get people off their butts' what do you mean exactly? Not patronizing, just curious what you think a solution would be, other than trying to get someone you believe in elected (to president in the above case). Are you suggesting some sort of revolt or more physical action than campaigning and voting?

It seems that there really isn't much option for change as far as actual politics go... As South Park noted, you usually get the choice between A Giant Douche and A Turd Sandwich.

[masmullin]

"What are they supposed to do?"

For a starter, watch Lawerence Lessig @google talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc

Get off your butts and vote independent. For those who claim that you're throwing your vote away reply with "No, you're throwing YOUR vote away."

[ItendToDisagree]

That's all well and good, but why do you think that an independent candidate can make a difference? Particularly in an entrenched 2 party system, that would likely marginalize them to the extreme, and can barely make progress on its own? If we could somehow vote to have more than 2 parties, I'd be all about that, but it seems highly unlikely given the current state of things.

I agree it would be a change but how can you be certain that independent 'party' person will be any better than the previous crop of Rs and Ds? Especially (and some may call this tin-foil hattery) if there is a massive surveillance regime in place that is digging up (or can dig up) dirt on any politician for blackmail?

[masmullin]

Most of the people I talk to say things like "I would vote for this independent candidate because I believe in his ideals and his statements. But I cant vote for him because it's like throwing my vote away."

IE People in my circles generally vote against democrats or against republicans (actually Im Canadian so it's more like vote against Liberals vs against Conservatives... but you get the idea). They dont care about the person their voting for, they are voting to keep someone out.

My concern is that the two major parties are basically the same, so the dichotomy isn't rep vs dem; it's voting for what you believe in vs voting for what you don't believe in. If you vote for what you dont believe in, you are truly throwing away your vote.

There is no proof that an indy would be better than mainstream, but politics is never about proof, and always about trust. You have to trust that the person you're voting for will do whats right for you. If you get your trust broken, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

If you truly favour one politician in the mainstream, then by all means vote for them. But if you're just voting against someone, you are throwing your vote away.

[ItendToDisagree]

Agreed on all points really. :)

I personally believe the 2 party system in general is broken and without major reform it will continue to be garbage in, garbage out