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by jmnicolas 4533 days ago
Yes exactly.

I'm a bit fed up with people advocating more women in <insert male dominated industry here>.

As far as I can tell these same people don't complain that teachers and nurses jobs are mainly occupied by women.

Everybody seem to agree that a nursing job is not attractive for most men. Maybe the reason that women are few in tech is because these professions are not attractive to them.

7 comments

I was doing a Ph.D to become a lecturer, which is technically a teacher. Have you seen the pay for teachers and lecturers? I'm making more in my first year of tech contracting than a mid-career academic or teacher would make in salary.

I've got a male friend working in nursing. I admire his dedication to caring for people, but there's no way I'd switch places. I get to write Python all day, he gets to clean up other people's bodily fluids for a dismal salary. We both think we've got the better deal in life because he gets to care for people while I just write dull programmes for computers to make some business more financially successful, and that's got no grand overriding meaning unless you are a hardcore capitalist Ayn Rand type.

Why is nursing not attractive to men? Because men don't care about people? Absolutely not. How about: because of low pay and because gender roles dictate that it's not a "manly" thing to do? Indeed, the friend who works in nursing is a campy and effeminate gay man. Which matches the stereotype.

The reasons men and women go into particular jobs isn't set in stone. There's no gene that turns one person into a programmer and another into a nurse. It's social conditioning, it's stereotypical gender roles, it's educational opportunities, it's pay and benefits - it's a whole bunch of shit we can change.

If a woman wants to go into computing, she should be able to without having to deal with stupid nerds-as-the-new-frat-boys brogrammer bullshit, and if guys want to go into nursing, they should be able to do so with their heads held high and without anyone questioning their masculinity or making assumptions about their sexuality. Blowing up society's gender roles and expectations is key to this.

Every single time this topic is mentioned someone makes the comment about nurses or teachers; or women in construction.

There are programmes aimed at getting more men into nursing and teaching. There are programmes aimed at getting more women into construction.

I heard tons of people complain about that, though for other reasons - it would be really good for boys (and their social and academic performance) to have male rolemodels, the argument goes.

Consider the reasons for non-attractiveness. In the case of nursing, it's bad pay as well, presumably. In the case of IT, the general unfriendliness is one reason, though there might be others. Shouldn't we just remove the removable ones?

(I don't first-up reject the theory that there might be 'biological' reasons that apply to the majority of people, but we won't really find out until we try. And there will always be outliers.)

(Why, you ask? So that when I walk into a room, I could be the boss too, and not automatically be tagged with 'secretary'. It's about status and power in the end, maybe?)

Just curious why you think nursing is bad pay? Or what do you consider to be bad?

Where I live (Vancouver, BC.) entry level (students) pay for nurses is $50K/year. Average earnings for nurses I believe is on the order of $70-90K/year though.

I think it is mainly because nursing isn't a 'career' kind of a job. You can make $50K an year, but 10 years down the lane, now what?

While your engineering friend is aiming to sell his start up for some millions of dollars, your job doesn't even have the scope to even attempt anything like that even if you wanted to.

Nursing has career path through specialist forms of nursing (intensive care, nurse-prescribers, etc) to management of teams, wards, hospitals, health trusts, etc.

That's what a normal career. Most people don't have the sell-the-company lottery as an option.

Actually my point was, if you look at it carefully- Professions like teaching and nursing do have a degree of career progression, but that looks super pale in comparison with any anything in the engineering domain.

The argument is similar to the discussion about Wall Street traders and Programmers. Note each of those folks at the Wall Street are taking back millions in bonuses each year. Yet we are to them a nursing-like profession, what the nursing profession is to us.

It's almost like Vancouver cares more about nurses than software developers making up a significant portion of tech industry.

Think about this, an entry level nurse makes more than an entry level software developer in Vancouver, an experienced nurse ends up making more than a intermediate/senior developer with several years of experience at a firm in Vancouver.

Nurses get paid overtime, software developers are not, as overtime is almost expected with any software project.

Nurses get unions, software devs do not, because someone decided that tech jobs are not as valued or skilled as being a nurse, and that the market is efficient or protected from exploitation by employers knowing that the supply of jobs is seldom, so they treat them like commodity.

I think this argument also holds true about Vancouver when you replace nurse with [insert random trade] (e.g. HVAC technician, elevator technician, etc.)

On average I feel software devs are highly underpaid in Vancouver (even more so when you take into account the cost of living).

> As far as I can tell these same people don't complain that teachers and nurses jobs are mainly occupied by women.

THIS COMES UP EVERY SINGLE TIME THIS TYPE OF THING COMES UP. PEOPLE DO HARD AT GETTING MEN INTO WOMEN-DOMINATED PROFESSIONS SUCH AS TEACHING AND NURSING. I'M WRITING THIS IN CAPITAL LETTERS IN THE HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL STOP BLOODY SAYING THIS EVERY BLOODY TIME!

Bah.

The lack of male teachers is considered a problem by many people in education. A lot of words were written and conferences organized on the topic.

tl;dr: the consensus seems to be that it would be better if there would be more male teachers so the boys would have more teachers to relate to.

Never in my life I've seen an article named I'm teacher and I'm a male!; Life as a male nurse; etc..

I think these articles are mainly link-bait for pageviews, nothing more.

Do you hang out on teaching or nursing forums?
do you really not know how to use google?
I feel that both ethnic and gender diversity can improve many work environments, be it software development or nursing.

Maybe men should start advocating for more boys in <insert female dominate industry here>? Sounds like a good Superbowl Ad campaign!

Side note: I remember in my first year of university there was like 30 girls and 1 boy in the nursing faculty. Everyone cheered on that lucky guy :P

You seriously believe we need more effort put forth in the nursing industry? Please list a single one of these <insert female dominate industry here> that is highly important for solving mankind's problems?