[kabouseng]

As an alternative example to what happens when you give the poor a stipend, have a look at the government grant system employed in South Africa, and the absolute misuse and abuse that system is under.

I believe the South African example is a closer approximation to what a society would look like with a basic guaranteed income.

[nhaehnle]

Do you have some links to sources?

[kabouseng]

Ok I'm back. Just googling "South African grants misuse" will give you plenty of sources. I wont link the top results, but your more than welcome to look for yourself. The system is rife with corruption and abuse. Also of note is that about 2 - 3 million tax payers carry the burden of upwards of 12 million grant receivers. An unsustainable system collapsing under its own weight.

[nhaehnle]

+1 for actually coming back, even if not with exact links. I must say that I find it hard to get a good picture from the links in a simple Google search, and your numbers seem weird. South Africa has a population of 50+ million, how do you end up saying that there are only 2-3 million tax payers? That makes no sense, given that typically everybody pays taxes, directly or indirectly.

[kabouseng]

My apologies then. Here are the links I had a skim through:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/25/social-grants...

http://www.sacp.org.za/main.php?ID=4121

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/young-moms-abuse-gran...

Please note the variance in the sources (even communist party :D ), so not really a biased picture. Everyone knows the grant system is being abused on a massive scale. Also the amount of people on the grant system exploded from 80 000 people receiving grants in 1998 until today's 12 000 000 people. And South Africa is not exactly a rich country...

As for my taxpayer statement, you only pay taxes if you earn above a certain amount. But it is a sliding scale system, so about 2 300 000 people are responsible for 93% of all the collected taxes, supporting 12 000 000 people. Not sustainable.

An in depth explanation: http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-tax/less-taxpayers-than-s...

[kabouseng]

I'll have to go search for some, I've only got my own experience :D. Give me a day or two, I don't mind getting some for you.

[eli_gottlieb]

South Africa is a very close approximation of what happens when you impose decades of apartheid and then let a small elite class of blacks in on the fun without actually dismantling the inegalitarian economic system itself.

[kabouseng]

:) And how would you go about dismantling the inegalitarian economic system?

[kabouseng]

And what about the current owners? The state can't afford to buy them out. Disown them? Massive loss of international trade and investment trust as could be seen with other african countries (Zimbabwe is the most prominent example).

[eli_gottlieb]

Convert natural resources into commons trusts and industrial concerns into workers' cooperatives.