[joyeuse6701]

I like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that, I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made decisions...more likely to have more effect on what the current state is than the men in uniform ironically.

[aaronem]

A moment's thought, had you paused to engage in same, would've led you to realize that Ukrainian grandmothers today were, in youth, governed by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, whose regime was never particularly noted for the extent of the freedom of conscience and action it extended to its subjects.

[joyeuse6701]

I'm well aware of that part of history, given that I am Polish, And my main issue is the narrative of the article: 'innocent grandma' vs. 'ignorant thug kids'. As they say, sons bear the sins of their father.

and really a downvote? Did anyone read between the lines of that post and not sense the propaganda?

[elohesra]

Recursively apply Joyeuse's point until you hit a generation that wasn't coerced into making bad choices. Joyeuse's main point was that we can't blame a younger generation and simultaneously vindicate the preceding generation. This does seem to hold true.

[aaronem]

I suppose, in the wake of the Nürnberg Assizes, it makes sense to argue in this fashion. But I've never been all that strongly convinced by the argument that "only following orders" is never a defense, especially as applied to civilians; it seems to require of every human a degree of moral fiber which has never been commonly found at any point in history.

Had these grandmothers, in their youth, rebelled against their rulers, they'd have failed, and even those who survived would've been abused in every imaginable fashion. How does this imply that they're at fault for the abuse they suffer at the hands of their grandchildren's cohort today?

[withouted]

this is a very stupid comment, i made an account just so i could reply, first of all poland was never the same as ukraine under soviet rule. Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in ukraine. secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know of your experiences in poland but in ukraine the only thing you shaped was how much alcohol you would be drinking during the day. third, the riot police in ukraine is not what you might think of as "innocent" police protecting the state, they protests ignited after the riot police descended on peaceful students and killed several of them including a pregnant girl. lastly and sadly that this is not covered more by western media, these are extremely peaceful protests, where peaceful protesters round up provacateurs and hold them up against the walls of buildings not letting them provoke police. My source? being in the streets. very stupid and offending comment.

[joyeuse6701]

>Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in Ukraine.

I agree, this was my understanding. Actually I reference my background because of the culture I inherited. There are several members of my family (70s up) who were children during WWII and did feel the yoke of soviet oppression (Siberian death camps in particular). The rest were murdered in Ukraine no less. That is the only reason I cited my background.

> secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know of your experiences in poland but in ukraine the only thing you shaped was how much alcohol you would be drinking during the day.

If not the previous generation, then who? The generation before? Clearly we are blaming the riot police for the calamity of the day (which is fair) but let's not forget how things came to be. If you were drinking alcohol to handle your depression in an oppressed state, then clearly by doing nothing, you did nothing to help the state of things.

>third, the riot police in ukraine is not what you might think of as "innocent" police protecting the state, they protests ignited after the riot police descended on peaceful students and killed several of them including a pregnant girl.

No one is pushing that narrative, if I implied such, I did not mean it. But realize, again, this did not happen in a vacuum, choices were made, or not made.

But my main point is this: Those are people, in that gear, who work for the state. If there is a takeaway from holding a mirror to them it's this: You're human, we're human. Don't dehumanize anyone, protestors and police alike.

[MrZongle2]

Not sure why you were downvoted.

The hippies and love-children and down-with-the-man types of the 60s and 70s have been in power for the last quarter century.

They have shaped the world as they collectively see fit, and it's not that different from the one they protested against.

[joyeuse6701]

Thank you good sir! +1

[moocowduckquack]

The hippies and love-children and down-with-the-man types of the 60s and 70s have been in power for the last quarter century.

In the Ukraine? Are you completely mental?

[MrZongle2]

Worldwide.

There are certainly plenty of examples here in the U.S.

[jedmeyers]

There is no "the" in Ukraine.

[Mikeb85]

While this is true, the word 'Ukraine' comes from a Slavic word for 'border' or 'region', so using 'the' in front of it makes sense when you consider the original meaning of the name and how English is spoken. All my Canadian-Ukrainian relatives say 'the Ukraine', even though as the proper name of a country you should just say 'Ukraine'.

[moocowduckquack]

There used to be. I didn't realise till I just looked it up ( http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/ukraine.html ) that they had officially dropped the 'the' after 1990, I thought either was correct.