[waterlion]

"Django REST framework is an insane framework"

I'm fed up with this kind of oppressive language. This is heteronormative and is discriminatory to the mentally ill. It's stuff like this that leads to the imbalance and under-representation in the industry. Let's boycott this author.

(I would love not to have to write "</satire>" but having seen some of the comments here, I think I need to. I wonder how many white-knights-for-women use language like this without thinking. We need some flexibility in the way people are allowed to express themselves.)

[IgorPartola]

Bah. Your comment is probably one of the less informative ones here, so I downvoted you. Look, there are turns of phrase that shouldn't be used by responsible members of certain communities in public. Saying something like "watch out, woman driver" is pretty offensive universally. We can all benefit from a more inclusive and positive language.

However, the original quote of "Django REST framework is an insane framework" sound innocuous enough to me. The problem I have with it is not that it's discriminatory towards the mentally ill. It's that it makes the author sound like a 13 year old kid. They could improve the sentence by using words like fantastic, great, indispensable, useful, etc. Saying that a "framework" is an "insane framework" is really kind of stupid IMHO. The author could have just excluded that meaningless sentence and the article would have been improved as a result.

Edit: also, searching through the comments on this page, you are the only one bringing up the "insane" word and making (bad) puns around it. Your original comment sounds like a reply to something someone did, except nobody here did anything like what you are accusing them of. Perhaps you might want to take to Twitter or Reddit for pointless venting at nobody in particular. </satire>

[epochwolf]

How is this heteronormative? I didn't see any reference to gender in the entire article.

Also, you're really stretching the "discrimination to the mentally ill" thing to the point of silliness.

[waterlion]

I was going to say "the equivalent of heteronormative but for mental illness" but I thought that anyone that understood what I was saying might have just let me have that one slip and interpreted the meaning rather than focus on its strict representation.

It wasn't a joke as such, at least its intention wasn't primarily humour. Just highlighting the fact that nearly everything everyone says is offensive or exclusionary to someone and that if we adopt the universal application of the principles of extreme gender-neutral language that we've seen advocated on HN and elsewhere, equally for every issue, we end up with lobotomised language†.

I think the use of 'insane' is fine. And I think the use of gendered pronouns is fine. But I am neither insane nor of a gender that is under-represented in the pronoun

† oh never mind

[epochwolf]

This article has no relevance to gender-neutral language and no one other than yourself is discussing this. It would be better to address this issue in a relevant thread instead of hijacking a random one.

[waterlion]

Specifically the casual use of the word 'insane'. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the contents of the page and make references to things not contained on the page.

[epochwolf]

I think you're thinking of the word "retarded". You might as well be arguing against using the word "crazy". Insane and crazy have identical meaning in most contexts.

[madsushi]

Ableist is the word he was looking for.

[robertfw]

should have used a bigger </satire>...

[epochwolf]

Or perhaps waterlion should have just not made the joke. It does not relate to the article in any fashion I can find relevant nor does it add anything to the existing discussion.

[waterlion]

I think it adds to the broader discussion that goes on on HN, specifically over the last month or so.

Could you remove that joke about the dog from your profile page please? I went there looking for serious information.

[epochwolf]

If you could tell me what you're looking for instead of what you're not looking for, I'd be happy to provide it.

[waterlion]

I'm looking for interesting discussion with intelligent people on a range of subjects guided by user-submitted stories. I'm looking for explorations of ideas, learning new things, synthesis as well as derivative ideas. Open-mindedness and acceptance. Otherwise there's no point.

I'm not looking for pedantry and closed-mindedness (I'm not accusing you of those things).

I'm probably in the wrong place for that on HN, but the articles are interesting and often so is the discussion.

[eli]

I think </trolling>

[waterlion]

I was not trolling by the definition I know. I just thought that it might lead to an interesting conversation.

It's just too hard to communicate on the internet, especially with people who don't share your conversational goals. I think I just found a new year's resolution.

[IgorPartola]

Let's Google "trolling". Definition of the informal use of the word:

"submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response."

Message board? Check! Deliberately provocative? Check! Angry responses? Check! Must be trolling.

[epochwolf]

Judging by your history on this site, you've done nothing but trolling.

[waterlion]

It's a shame you think that I'm trolling. You're welcome to go back over my comment history and look at the conversations I've engaged in. Sure my comments provoke a range of responses. It would be a boring world if everyone always agreed with everything. Maybe the writing style isn't to everyone's taste. But they're never intended to provoke anger.

My original point was that the absolute application of principles designed to bring about equality could be harmful and that we need to apply contextual understanding to language. If the expression of that idea makes you angry, that's fine, but it's not trolling.

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this thread as it doesn't look like pursuing this idea is constructive.

[maxerickson]

At a minimum you chose an odd target for your satire. There isn't really any adjective that can be used in that location that will add much information to the text (it is just expressing enthusiasm).

An experiment: Next time you reach for some euphemism for mental illness, consider a couple of alternative phrasings (that do not use the euphemism). Decide if the alternatives are clearer or more precise. I don't run around taking issue with word choices, but if I run that experiment, I usually choose one of the alternative phrasings.

[mitte]

sounds oppressive but surely not meant this way - the author's mother tongue is probably german and in german "wahnsinnig gut" is a common idiom. It is just bad translation.

[justinsteele]

Terrible joke/10

[waterlion]

It wasn't primarily a joke/10.