[apricot7]

Now, do you have anything at all cogent to say about the obvious cultural and economic forces that create differences?

Let's think about this.

We know there are differences in brain chemistry between males and females, and those difference surge around puberty when sex hormones are flooding the system (rather than appearing gradually over time as a result of playing with different toys).

That said, the fact that males and females have different brains doesn't preclude other culture differences.

But why are these differences so similar across nearly every culture?

A close relative of ours might explain this: Monkeys! Male monkeys prefer playing with traditional male toys, like trucks and balls, while female monkeys prefer playing with traditional female toys, like dolls. Predisposition to prefer certain types of stimulus is quite likely hardcoded in every one of us. The study was conducted on two different species of monkey:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-pre...

[quinnchr]

From the study:

"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences."

It takes pretty huge step to get from there to suggesting that human girls are genetically predisposed to liking barbies and kitchen toys.

Those differences aren't so similar across nearly every culture. Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups. Nearly every metric related to gender differences varies substantially across different cultures. For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math.

[apricot7]

Of course. The full quote from the study:

-----

Sex differences in juvenile activities, such as rough and tumble play, peer preferences, and infant interest, share similarities in humans and monkeys. Thus if activity preferences shape toy preferences, male and female monkeys may show toy preferences similar to those seen in boys and girls.

We compared the interactions of 34 rhesus monkeys, living within a 135 monkey troop, with human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization.

-----

Male monkeys preferred roughhousing and toys that developed their spatial intelligence. Compared to boys, female monkeys preferred dolls that developed other forms of intelligence.

Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups.

Interesting. I can't really find anything on this, and Wikipedia doesn't have anything either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psycho...

Are you referring to a study about a village where women were able to solve a puzzle faster than men?

For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math.

This would be shocking if it weren't true.

I'm curious to here what countries those are, because I suspect the countries that women test better in math will be the same countries that spend a disproportionate amount of time and money trying to improve women's math scores.

A possibly relevant example: Men and boys tend to have better spacial intelligence than women and girls. But as an Israeli (I think) study showed us, spending extra time instructing students how to pass a specific type of spatial intelligence test resulted in everyone doing well on those tests, not just the boys.

[quinnchr]

http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci708/module2/Science_math_gen...

Specifically in the U.S. asian women score better in math than asian men.

"I'm curious to here what countries those are, because I suspect the countries that women test better in math will be the same countries that spend a disproportionate amount of time and money trying to improve women's math scores."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_gaps_in_mathematics_and_...

You'll note Sweden is approaching parity between men and women in math and they are consistently ranked #1 in the world in terms of gender equality. Is it really ridiculous to suggest that gender differences would be minimized in a more equal society?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-learning-brain/20121...

[apricot7]

Is it really ridiculous to suggest that gender differences would be minimized in a more equal society?

It depends on how we define "equal". Imagine a human society in which the physical strength of men and women are equal, and are kept equal through academic and government policy.

On one hand, that's an equal society. On the other hand, that's a tyrannical society which forcibly boosts girls and women at the expense of boys and men.

I think the Wikipedia article you linked to tends to support the theory that girls are receiving special treatment—countries in which girls are closing the gap in mathematics also tend to be the countries in which girls are extending their gap in reading.

You specifically mentioned Sweden as an example of equality. In Sweden, girls slightly outperform boys in mathematics, AND girls outperform boys in reading by a much larger margin than boys outperform girls in mathematics in any country.

Why is that touted as an example of equality?

[quinnchr]

Equality isn't about eliminating differences across different groups. When I argue for a more equal society, I'm not saying everyone should be made to be identical, I'm saying everyone should be treated equitably.

If you read the last article I linked. Pay close attention to this part:

"When participants were told that they were about to perform a working memory task (which included math operations as a kind of distractor) to get norms for student, men and women performed equally. But when the same test was given with the information that this was a test of complex mathematics in order to compare males and females, performance in female participants dropped almost 30 percent."

This suggests to me an inequitable society. A society where at a young age women are already taught that they aren't supposed to be good at math.

The top five countries where women scored better than men are Malta, Albania, Trinidad and Tobago, India, and Kyrgyzstan. Do you have any evidence of educational policies favoring women at the expense of men in these countries?

As to the reading gap, of course this is an issue. Just as much effort that is put into bringing math scores to parity should be spent on the reading gap. Sweden is an example of equality, because even though there are plenty inequitable parts of their society they actively work to make those equitable. What is your preferred model of an equitable society, or do you simply think that equality inevitably means oppressing the dominant class?

[orangecat]

As to the reading gap, of course this is an issue. Just as much effort that is put into bringing math scores to parity should be spent on the reading gap. Sweden is an example of equality

Sweden is an example of girls doing 20 points better relative to boys in both math and reading compared to the US. And the pattern generally holds for the other countries as well. Take the sum of the math and reading gaps, and that value is more stable (min 29, max 64), compared with the gaps for math (-15 to +32) and reading (10 to 72). If anything, this data raises the probability that I assign to the proposition that girls and boys on average have different natural aptitudes.

[apricot7]

Quinnchr, I can't reply to you, so I'll reply here instead.

This suggests to me an inequitable society. A society where at a young age women are already taught that they aren't supposed to be good at math.

The article you linked had a different take—that women are more adversely affected by pressure than are men.

The article had a different take, because I don't think your hypothesis is true: And I went through the American public school system very recently. There wasn't a single year in which it wasn't drilled into our heads by predominantly female teachers how much better girls are than boys at everything. Boys were the victim of daily jabs. There wasn't a single year in which we weren't told that the only reason girls have been traditionally worse at math is because mean boys make girls think they're worse.

This article...

http://ideas.time.com/2013/02/06/do-teachers-really-discrimi...

...mentions something that I witnessed personally. Teachers tend to despise boys who act like traditional boys. Those boys are treated more harshly. Their answers are never given the benefit of the doubt. They're mad to feel like failures.

So I think the meme of "girls are taught they suck; boys are taught they're great" doesn't apply to the United States, and opposite has likely been true since the 70s or 80s.

Sweden is an example of equality, because even though there are plenty inequitable parts of their society they actively work to make those equitable

I think they spend a lot of time and money giving special treatment to girls and women, trying to close innate performance gaps. If they wanted to be truly equitable, they'd do the same for boys (and maybe they're starting to, and we'll soon see results).

But even if Sweden were to do that, what then? They've spent a lot of time pursuing equal results, as though it's a goal in and of itself. Why should it be?

If you have two people, one of whom innately excels at math and the other innately excels at editing prose, why not encourage and foster those skills instead of fighting against them? Specialization isn't a bad thing; it's necessary for real progress to be made.

[needacig]

"On the other hand, that's a tyrannical society which forcibly boosts girls and women at the expense of boys and men."

First of all, as others have pointed out, equality does not mean forcing everyone to have equal abilities. Equality means not pre-judging anyone's abilities based on irrelevant characteristics like sex or race. Second of all, arguments like yours always clue me off that the person making the argument is operating under the default assumption that boys and men are better than women and girls in general and that assuming that they just might be equal for any given task until proven otherwise is tyranny. Let me guess: MRA?

[apricot7]

I meant "curious to hear", not "curious to here". Editing my post seems to have no effect.